Live data from Hacker News

Local Qwen isn't a worse Opus, it's a different tool

blog.alexellis.io

61–70 of 271 posts

Re: Local Qwen isn't a worse Opus, it's a different tool

#61
post #6

If you play with these models long enough, you realize there is more to them than just "model X is smarter than model Y" or "model Y is cheaper than model Z". They are different tools and the prompting technique is different. It is very much like playing an instrument. With Claude, you sometimes want to under-specify or phrase things more indirectly to give a color to the implementation or elicit something creative.…

[deleted]

Re: Local Qwen isn't a worse Opus, it's a different tool

#62
post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What would it take to have trustworthy benchmarks? As with all "targets", they can be gamed - but I am curious about quantifiable quality metrics.

You can't measure "feels". One good analogy is the Macbook vs generic windows laptop debate online. The engineer mind just compares numbers, the Lingwoo laptop from Amazon has biggest numbers for everything and the lowest price. Ergo it is the best. But the numbers don't measure the fact that the Lingwoo creaks and squeaks when you lift it due to the cheap plastic. It also runs at 100C when both CPU and GPU are fully…

> You can't measure "feels".

One can always measure whatever they wonder about. It doesn't mean the measure will be trustworthy and that anything built on it won't be at best not worst than wet finger judgement.

Re: Local Qwen isn't a worse Opus, it's a different tool

#63
post #6

If you play with these models long enough, you realize there is more to them than just "model X is smarter than model Y" or "model Y is cheaper than model Z". They are different tools and the prompting technique is different. It is very much like playing an instrument. With Claude, you sometimes want to under-specify or phrase things more indirectly to give a color to the implementation or elicit something creative.…

> It is very much like playing an instrument. Or it is more like playing a slot machine and you imagine the rest.

Instruments are pseudo-random until you know what you're doing. Slot machines are just slot machines

Re: Local Qwen isn't a worse Opus, it's a different tool

#64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The power of Opus isn't just the model, it's in the harness too. You can try it by using Opus through Github Copilot vs official Anthropic tools. You'll get very different results and experience (in my opinion).

I’ve only used Opus in GitHub copilot and was hugely underwhelmed. It was barely usable. Are you saying it’s better with the official Anthropic tools?

I don't know about better but it's certainly different. It's painfully slow through claude code vscode extension compared to copilot but maybe "smarter", I feel like I have to correct it less using sonnet on both. I don't use opus much because of the cost but coworkers say the difference between harnesses there is also pronounced.

Re: Local Qwen isn't a worse Opus, it's a different tool

#65
post #30
post #6

If you play with these models long enough, you realize there is more to them than just "model X is smarter than model Y" or "model Y is cheaper than model Z". They are different tools and the prompting technique is different. It is very much like playing an instrument. With Claude, you sometimes want to under-specify or phrase things more indirectly to give a color to the implementation or elicit something creative.…

totally true. one key for claude is to not smell like an evaluator, its good at knowing when its being tested and will behave defensively and avoid doing work. i avoid this basin by typing unreasonably excited about the thing i want done. like way over the top. it's harder to keep that up than it sounds.

I’m able to avoid this basin with a pretty natural baseline professional positivity and frustration management that I would employ with pair-programming. For example, if I just made progress with a human I was guiding through a task, I would be like “Nice, now let’s xyz” (instead of just “now let’s xyz” as if _I_ were the robot lol) or if we had to work for a result I’ll be like “Sweet! Looks good, now let’s xyz” - this is important signal for humans, and the same is true for agents. Also staying emotionally regulated and focused on the goal when things don’t work as expected or when we haven’t made progress after a few tries at something, critical in human interactions :) and even if it’s my job paying for the tokens, the idea of racking up even a microscopic bill for the privilege of having a machine read my insults and then formulate some credible-sounding blob of apology text is belly-laugh absurd to me. I do try to express my genuine feelings during more vision-oriented planning sessions, and just like with a human, you have to maintain the vibes if you want a genuinely collaborative session to go well. If you are toxic people will become either defensive or aggressive in response. From reading the rest of the front page it seems like we are lucky that Claude is the former, and that we especially best maintain a positive atmosphere around Grok.

Re: Local Qwen isn't a worse Opus, it's a different tool

#67
I found it interesting that vLLM was dismissed as slower than llama.cpp.

IME vLLM is quite a bit faster than llama.cpp but where it really wipes the floor with it is in batching concurrent load. The downside is that it is dramatically less flexible in terms of tweaking. It gives you very few options for running quantized weights. It takes a lot longer to start up because it optimizes the compute graph. So for single user experimentation on a model that's a bit too big for your box, vLLM is just going to be frustrating.

Re: Local Qwen isn't a worse Opus, it's a different tool

#68
post #2

This article is a good summary of local models. Unlike the way they are hyped sometimes, as fantastic tools for coding and agentic local work. The reality is that they are rather limited, would not do well on a long or complex task, and are prone to fall into loops, forget their tasks, etc. Not mentioned in the article is that they are also rather expensive - not just for the hardware cost, but also electricity. Thes…

My dream would be a local model that can do, say, 80% of the day to day tasks I need; "how does X Handler connect to Y storage?", "commit that feature, but leave out the bits that relate to billing" etc. It would have 99% reliable tool calling - and most importantly - the ability to go "this task is beyond my skills" and refer to a Big Boy Online Model in a gigantic datacenter somewhere. This way all of the simple st…

> My dream would be a local model that can do, say, 80% of the day to day tasks I need; "how does X Handler connect to Y storage?", "commit that feature, but leave out the bits that relate to billing" etc.

Qwen 3.6 27B can do that today, but setup properly and in a good quant, I run an autoround [0] with weights in int8 and attention heads in f16 on a single RTX 6000 Pro Blackwell Max-Q via vllm with mtp=2 and full context, --max-num-seqs 3, KV in f16, mamba f32.

>It would have 99% reliable tool calling

I managed to score 93/100 in tool-eval-bench [1]. For me this is very good already, at least in the pi coding harness I've never had an issue that wasn't auto-fixed in the next turn(s).

>the ability to go "this task is beyond my skills" and refer to a Big Boy Online Model in a gigantic datacenter somewhere

This is heavy on the harness engineering side I think, but also quite contrary to the nature of LLMs today. If you figure this out I'd love to know.

[0] https://huggingface.co/Minachist/Qwen3.6-27B-INT8-AutoRound/...

[1] https://github.com/SeraphimSerapis/tool-eval-bench

Re: Local Qwen isn't a worse Opus, it's a different tool

#69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yyep. IME Claude is the most "creative" of the bunch, you can get surprising ideas out of it that were kinda tickling the back of your head but didn't really connect. BUT it's also "relentlessly proactive" like simonw put it. It _will_ get the job done, it's the smartest idiot in town. Why use a library to parse $format when you can just write a custom 1000 line parser? Or if it can't access something, it'll pursue t…

The parsing thing, or the willingness to instantly drop into janky unsanitized string manipulations, or to constantly push back against work on infra projects because some random package on GitHub has 200 stars so it’s totally the safer approach, is driving me insane. On one hand I’m glad Anthropic is only just now starting to get into infrastructure because it means there’s opportunity there, but it’d be great for t…

I feel like this is really due to the harness.

Gemini CLI at work has the same issue: it'll prefer hacking your workstation over just asking you how to proceed.

I think the harnesses are setup to have a bias to action otherwise the LLM would just stop all the time when doing trivial task but it also mean they'll keep going when the "obvious" path is to just prompt the user.

Re: Local Qwen isn't a worse Opus, it's a different tool

#70
post #9

That's a great write up. The one thing I feel it seems to under estimate is the likelihood of improvement. Even the authors acknowledge it's not even worth comparing local models from a year ago to what we have now. In fact, people widely see Opus 4.5 in November last year - 8 months ago - as the first time agentic coding became viable broadly viable even with frontier hosted models. So why would we lock in hard on a…

And a big thing that's missing is ... the harness comparison. Ot plays a very big role. I use forge, and I have been inpressed with what it can do given all the limitations of local models.
Post reply on HN