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Building Pi with Pi

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Re: Building Pi with Pi

#61

Post by Mashimo »

raulparada wrote: post #57
Mashimo wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fascinating. Is it that exact word, or rather any negative words towards llms? For example would calling my agent "piece of shit" be similar for you? What about other objects like an old car?

I guess loaded derogatory terms are somehow worse than otherwise worse-sounding terms. Think about it in the context of e.g. the n-word. “A piece of shit”, while sounding very bad: 1. is generic, can be applied to anything thus has no discrimination component, and 2. ends there. It has no history, no reference to previous usage, etc.

I guess. I'm not sure if it's the exception, but for example "rust bucket" is mostly used against old vehicles.

Now I'm laying here, wondering if it's bad to be discriminating against objects.

Re: Building Pi with Pi

#62

Post by cavacavacava »

skeledrew wrote: post #17

[flagged]

Using “clanker” is the sign of a lack of empathy.

The OP is still in his edgy teenager phase, apparently… yes I know they’re successful; that might actually be the reason why they pick these words.

“Look, I’m so cool for using this neo-slur even though I build AI products! Like I’m so meta you see, I should be LOVING LLMs but instead I use the word clanker! I’m so complex and intricate and yeah obviously I’m not like the other AI users building slop. Cuz if I was building slop I would be infatuated with LLMs and thus I wouldn’t be using the term clanker. And also I’m very well emotionally tuned and suuuure clanker doesn’t sound like n-er to me and if it does to you then YOU have a problem! Oh those Americans and their political correctness! So annoying! But ME I’m different and don’t care about that because I’m HONEST and don’t hide the truth. Suck it Americans!”

Btw I’m not American nor politically correct. Still, I think it’s lame to use the word “clanker” because it shows immaturity.

Re: Building Pi with Pi

#63

Post by dist-epoch »

shooly wrote: post #44
dist-epoch wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> piece of equipment You are certain about things that experts in philosophy/consciousness/AI can't agree on. That should make you pause, not plow ahead.

Lots of people can think for themselves and don't need to wait for others to tell them what they should think.

> The French revolution is considered one of the most important events in the history of Europe, because of the great impact it had on the (among others) politics, economy and the quality of life of common people.

Funny, why do you care what other people "consider"? Let people think for themselves if the French revolution was important or not, why invoke authority/consensus.

Re: Building Pi with Pi

#64

Post by voidUpdate »

the_mitsuhiko wrote: post #60
voidUpdate wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Whereas I don't think justifying the use of a slur, a word that is commonly used to be derogatory, is a good thing, even when using it in other contexts. "It's ok because its not a human" feels dangerously close to justifications for using the n word in the past

The reason racism is a problem is because humans subdivide humans. A machine is not human. Putting these things on the same line is in fact exactly the issue I have with this. So no. I cannot stress enough how much I disagree with the idea that this is in any way related to the n-word precisely because this is addressed as non humans. That we are seriously considering if these things should be in any ways be equated…

I'm not saying that LLMs are human, I'm saying that casually using slurs in any context is not a good mindset

Re: Building Pi with Pi

#65

Post by dist-epoch »

the_mitsuhiko wrote: post #60
voidUpdate wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Whereas I don't think justifying the use of a slur, a word that is commonly used to be derogatory, is a good thing, even when using it in other contexts. "It's ok because its not a human" feels dangerously close to justifications for using the n word in the past

The reason racism is a problem is because humans subdivide humans. A machine is not human. Putting these things on the same line is in fact exactly the issue I have with this. So no. I cannot stress enough how much I disagree with the idea that this is in any way related to the n-word precisely because this is addressed as non humans. That we are seriously considering if these things should be in any ways be equated…

I'm curious if you commit to never in the future apologize for your use of the c-word in the past (now).

Re: Building Pi with Pi

#66

Post by dist-epoch »

simonw wrote: post #10
0xbadcafebee wrote: post #8

> To me, clanker is a much preferable term for agent. Agency lies with humans, not with machines We give machines agency all the time. Look up the definition of agency in any dictionary. Other than the specific usages ("a business", "a government organization"), the main definitions are "action, power, operation", "the office or function of an agent", "the capacity, condition, or state of acting or of exerting power"…

I've chosen to define "agency" as pretty much "the thing that humans can do and agents can't". To me, agency is the thing where you independently decide what it is you want to get done in the world, based on your own inherent goals. Being able to say "the one thing agents don't have is agency" is a really useful way to help people understand why people still matter. Setting software agents loose on the world to make…

You are contradicting yourself a bit.

First you say "the one thing agents don't have is agency" but then "to make their own top-level decisions".

Well, which one is it? If they don't have agency, then it's impossible for them to make top-level decision on their own.

Re: Building Pi with Pi

#67

Post by esperent »

spooneybarger wrote: post #58
esperent wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"that word"?

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48263889

Clanker? Are you afraid to even say it or something? It's a great word, I personally loved it in the article and I hope it becomes more common as a reaction to "agent" which feels so corporate and soleless.

Re: Building Pi with Pi

#68

Post by the_mitsuhiko »

voidUpdate wrote: post #64
the_mitsuhiko wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The reason racism is a problem is because humans subdivide humans. A machine is not human. Putting these things on the same line is in fact exactly the issue I have with this. So no. I cannot stress enough how much I disagree with the idea that this is in any way related to the n-word precisely because this is addressed as non humans. That we are seriously considering if these things should be in any ways be equated…

I'm not saying that LLMs are human, I'm saying that casually using slurs in any context is not a good mindset

I think that depends on how much weight you give to that word. You might attribute a lot of weight to it, but I don't. Language changes and its what we make of it. Maybe if a prevailing opinion arrives that people respond very negatively to that word, then I will have to rethink my choice of words, but right now I prefer attempting to establish it as a more neutral term for a machine.

My hunch is that this term is loaded not because it's seen as a slur, but because people are currently attempting to give LLMs a soul and they are developing a certain unease about some of the consequences that come with it. For some the LLM is developing from a soul-less tool to a something with a personality, something they bond with, that's where some of those lines are blurring. I just don't think this is healthy at all.

Re: Building Pi with Pi

#69

Post by theshrike79 »

voidUpdate wrote: post #64
the_mitsuhiko wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The reason racism is a problem is because humans subdivide humans. A machine is not human. Putting these things on the same line is in fact exactly the issue I have with this. So no. I cannot stress enough how much I disagree with the idea that this is in any way related to the n-word precisely because this is addressed as non humans. That we are seriously considering if these things should be in any ways be equated…

I'm not saying that LLMs are human, I'm saying that casually using slurs in any context is not a good mindset

What's the difference between "slur" and "name calling"?

Re: Building Pi with Pi

#70

Post by [deleted] »

dist-epoch wrote: post #63
shooly wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lots of people can think for themselves and don't need to wait for others to tell them what they should think.

> The French revolution is considered one of the most important events in the history of Europe, because of the great impact it had on the (among others) politics, economy and the quality of life of common people. Funny, why do you care what other people "consider"? Let people think for themselves if the French revolution was important or not, why invoke authority/consensus.

[deleted]
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