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It is time to build a new internet

mrmarket.bearblog.dev

61–70 of 105 posts

Re: It is time to build a new internet

#61
The idea is: we could have / have had some ideal situation but some X comes later and ruins it.

If we didn't have a strategy for X in the first place did we build the right thing? Should we go build another same-shaped thing also with no strategy for X?

Ah, but protocols and all of the good stuff from humanity, etc. Come on...

The internet is still there. Just go find it. Just go spend your time, money, and attention on it instead of where you are spending it now.

You won't do that, though. Will you?

People...

Re: It is time to build a new internet

#62
Thought provoking, but i dont understand what making an incompatible protocol would do. As soon as you have a machine-processable protocol (kind of a tautology), you can build bridge layers.

Sounds like an XY problem. What op wants is high barrier of entry and high curation. That exists already, but by virtue of high barrier of entry, they are hard to find :p. Discords, matrix, webrings, weird little websites.

Re: It is time to build a new internet

#63
Mastodon. What you want is already there.

People use block a lot there, not being rude, but just to curate their own feed so that it only has the stuff they want to see. There's a lot of left-wing and "woke" content, but that's a preference. If you don't lean that way, just start blocking and following to get the feed you want.

There's no algorithm, or any way to impose one, and no central control. It's a lightly modified ActivityPub protocol so you can always make your own client and server setup if you want.

I haven't seen any proper commercial spam yet, and the few MLM posts I've instantly blocked (I suspect hacked accounts). Since you only see who you follow, there's no way for a commercial account to get any reach - you'd have to pay someone with a lot of followers to boost your post to get it anywhere.

I'm really enjoying it.

Re: It is time to build a new internet

#64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> you would have to make it non-interoperable with existing money. Why? Just eliminate surveillance.. no tracking is no money. There's another theory that maybe no money is no content, but that's sort of what tfa (and other stuff on HN lately) is actually talking about. Lots of people who would make content or just conversation for free are still relying on some sense of community which is under attack everywhere if…

How do you limit the tracking? The site always gets the private data, it can't work without it. Sites farm out ads but they could be done by the site with no way to tell difference between an ad and a puppy pic.

> How do you limit the tracking?

Seems easy in the way that a lot of things are easy, and this definitely isn't about making everyone and everything untraceable.

We don't really need to play ads at 15% extra volume from content. GDPR didn't mean that every website has to do the passive-aggressive "Just following the rules here, click this so I will leave you alone" popup. Facebook could track users and sell ads without eagerly getting involved in things like election interference. Gas stations and airplanes could enjoy the good thing they've got going without pushing ads at captive audiences, increasing their margins some tiny percent of a percent while increasing friction and misery a lot more than that. A lot of this stuff is like arson, or stealing clothes that don't fit.. often the bad guy barely profits so it just seems pretty self-destructive and crazy.

I'm no idealist and I take for granted that greed and evil is going to happen, but I think most people can see that we need to pump the brakes. No-limits enshittification just blows up everything in the long term, including profit margins. Why the board and shareholders always tolerate this stuff from the person temporarily in the executive office is mystifying.

Re: It is time to build a new internet

#65

I disagree with the idea that money is what ruined the internet, to a degree. What ruined the internet was, quite frankly, non-nerdy people who caused the average intelligence of the internet to massively drop causing everything to be catered to LCD rather than assuming a basic competency. Yes, everything needing to extract money is part of it but that wouldn't be as offensive if there was still alignment on demograp…

In the late 2000's/early 2010's that started to pick up where i live, and it was referenced (even by the government itself with it's social programs) as 'digital inclusion', where technology products where subsidized and made more accessible (dumbed down) to the general public, for the reason you mentioned on your third paragraph.

While this was in a time when PCs where the main and only thing for most to access the internet, in my opinion this problem really took shape as smartphones got popular. They where shaped to adapt to a low-level of tech literacy, and lock you in instead of actually providing knowledge to the user. Facebook then went in, and then Whatsapp. Whatsapp was a fun one because carriers made it free of charge, the push to the masses was insane, and nowadays you are questioned and looked at weird if you say you don't have a Whatsapp account.

That trend is what broke most of the social interactions and services on the internet for me.

Re: It is time to build a new internet

#66
post #29

> What we basically need is a completely new protocol stack that is not interoperable with TCP/IP. You cannot solve social problems using technical solutions. Someone would simply build a bridge and siphon data out or in. Interoperability is one of those low-hanging fruits that, once solved, ruins its value.

You can solve a ton of social problems with technical solutions. 100 different, easy to integrate internets federated across a number of different communication technologies and protocols is actually very hard to regulate and capture. Sure, you won't have another Facebook, but we children of the 70s, 80s,and 90s would ser value in that.

What you described is the internet. The 'inter-' prefix means that.

Re: It is time to build a new internet

#67
I can't help but feel like these things sort of exist already in imperfect forms, so the question that comes to mind is one of costs, specifically what costs does interacting with or using such a network impose that makes it not worth it for people to engage with it in bad faith

Which immediately raises the question of what constituents bad faith interaction?

I think the author is at least saying that content created for the express purpose of pushing products is a bad faith interaction they don't want to engage with, cool, I'm not exactly a fan of ads myself

So what are different kinds of ecosystem that are resistant to bad faith interactions and why?

Academia is one to a degree, that's one kind of space where doing this kind of bad faith interaction would receive pushback, so it becomes not worth doing, that's one kind of negative feedback cycle, I think to a degree HN has a similar dynamic of the censor backed with moderation, the cost here would be the space constantly working to keep itself "pure"

My understanding is 4chan and it's like are another, their strategy is to create such a hostile environment that capital has limited interest in engaging with it, all you get are "authentic" interactions, though I'm not going to pretend I've spent much of any real time on there, so this is at best based on second hand experience, the cost here is more interesting, how hostile an environment are the users willing to bare and perpetuate in order to create their safe haven?

Then there's non-standard technical spaces, I'm less confident than the author that you can create a real alternative web without paying a tax on some level, what I mean by that is if you're building a protocol, it has on some level to be hostile or it's going to get co-opted, what comes to mind is something more like a multimodal protocol, you don't send text, you send media the vast majority of the time, VNC for example might work, your clients register click and hover states in 2d space and your servers are basically game engines, it would be very technically hostile, however until AI tools get a lot better, there's really little for them to work with and taking and remixing content is now fully on the authors terms, the downside is this might be worse, because it is very limiting and completely against the principles of what the web was built on, so if capital ever decides that they value this new space there's a lot they can do here

Am alternative tax is going fully into the p2p world, we build a network based on caching and p2p sharing and tracking anonymous metrics of how much content has spread, or who in the network has S it, that would at least indicate if it's something widespread or if it's something people who you trust engage with, this will make a network of gaps, where the cost is potentially even more fragmentation, however you can at least trust that some people who you know are on some level vouching for the content you see

It's a hard problem, I'm interested if this reframing on costs gives people a better way to think about it?

Re: It is time to build a new internet

#68

It's the most dumb article I have ever seen on Hackernews with respect to the writer who has knowledge about protocols and concepts. No TCP/IP means no normal internet routing. → You would need a totally new way for machines to find and send data to each other. Bots are not tied to HTTP/HTML forever, people can write new bots for the new protocol, including by the use of GUI automation (digital or with plotters that…

At least he got the premise right, if not the implementation. That is better than 50% of articles. :)

I mean, yeah, if you made a non-interoperable internet2, no one would use that, and therefore no marketer would use that too. In this sense this article is 100% correct.

Re: It is time to build a new internet

#70

> What we basically need is a completely new protocol stack that is not interoperable with TCP/IP. You cannot solve social problems using technical solutions. Someone would simply build a bridge and siphon data out or in. Interoperability is one of those low-hanging fruits that, once solved, ruins its value.

I have wondered if a pseudo-social / pseudo-technical solution of some sort of trust graph could help. Like you would say who you think is credible and human. An algorithm would evaluate trust on your behalf and it would look to the people you trust, and then who they trust, and so on and assign scores to people. Distrust, or even other observations, could percolate in a similar way. Then on social networks, or some…

>I have wondered if a pseudo-social / pseudo-technical solution of some sort of trust graph could help.

I'm actually building this

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