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Buy Nothing Day

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Re: Buy Nothing Day

#61

Post by MSM »

creatrixcordis wrote: post #37
pg wrote: post #9

People who think it's bad to want the world economy to grow probably haven't stopped to think about what economic growth consists of. Economic growth isn't just fat Americans buying bigger SUVs. It's also people in poor countries increasing their standard of living, and advances in medical care.

Yeah right!!! Nice spin on it dude. Increasing their standard of living while being subject to poor environmental conditions because of their corrupt officials who are pushed to be corrupt by our corrupt politicians, and so on. It's easy for you to say that while living in the land of the plenty and the so called free. Why dont you focus exclusively on startups with a whole-world(env-friendly) minded approach, becaus…

I buy plenty of things to make me happy.

I don't need the internet. Either do you. I also don't need to eat anything other than bean tortillas, but I will. I could probably get through my life wiping with single ply, but I'd rather have double.

If that makes me a bad guy in your eyes, ah well. I'm sure a few of the beers I went out my way to purchase will ease the pain.

Re: Buy Nothing Day

#62

Post by creatrixcordis »

rfrey wrote: post #14
bravoyankee wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A culture can stop being capitalistic and consumer-driven without becoming a fear driven dictatorship. Do you equate spending money with freedom and civil liberties? Is that the only way for you and I to be free, is to buy things?

Economic liberty seems to be a precondition for strong civil liberties, although certainly not sufficient. Also, class mobility seems to be most likely in a society with high economic activity, since there is a lot of demand to be filled and therefore the opportunity to fill it.

The criticism is: economic liberty, mobility blah blah, you need discipline at the individual level to balance that. Good education from parents and the eco-system you take part in, but i guess that is under your "certainly not sufficient" bit, but i believe that discipline takes you farther even in a not so ripe economic situation, i've seen joyful people in poor conditions, i've seen people bettering themselves in no to ripe conditions

i think this is the classic problem of people trying to fix their situations from the outside in, instead of from the inside out, ex: better economic situation = better people, but that is clearly faulty logic, i think it should be more like better people = way better economic situation

but then again why would a system that depends on its economy so much enforce such an idea: "better people", better people doesn't make enough money as it stands for them, that is why they don't put that in their ads instead of "buy this because of (some bullshit reason here) messaging" because "buy this because of this fucked up reason we created for you" makes more money, period,

politicians don't give a fuck about you and me man, they care about numbers, because of their vantage point, the ones that do end up getting wiped out, as we have seen throughout history, just like this new awesome movie lincoln shows "man wants people of all races to be free" get asassinated because of people with no self-discipline and no fucking compassion that were mostly focused on themselves

history really explains a lot about us, and so far it looks like we really haven't learnt too much

i wonder to think, what would the world be like if people in current power positions would actually be altruistic, sounds like a pipe dream to me

Re: Buy Nothing Day

#63

Post by mseebach »

rohern wrote: post #56
mseebach wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think anyone is burying their heads over this. The answer is "maybe not", but the followup is that there is absolutely no moral compass on which is would be even remotely acceptable to take even the smallest step to prevent the global poor to become as rich as we are.

"The answer is "maybe not", but the followup is that there is absolutely no moral compass on which is would be even remotely acceptable to take even the smallest step to prevent the global poor to become as rich as we are." The argument -- as far as I have witnessed it -- is not about preventing the poor from becoming rich. The argument is should richer people need to suffer to effect the enrichment of the poor. Acti…

That's not very different. It implies a level of wealth that can't be made available to the poor, regardless of the fact that we have in our selflessness given it up.

The answer to "we can't afford it" is the same to many other scenarios where you can't afford something but need to get it anyway: Figure out how to make it work. Inventing non-fossil liquid fuels would make a very good start.

Re: Buy Nothing Day

#64

Post by mseebach »

bravoyankee wrote: post #45
shuzchen wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The funny thing is that the people in North Korea only survived due to capitalism. Because the government has been incapable of distributing food, people have been forced to obtain it by trading in ad-hoc black markets.

No, that's closer to market socialism than capitalism.

I thought you weren't an expert on alternative economies?

First, market socialism is socialism with elements from capitalism, so the particular mechanism (ad-hoc black markets) is a capitalist one, regardless of where it came from.

Second, in market socialism, the market is legal and "white". In North Korea, they are very much not legal - thus, "black".

Interestingly, the resilience of markets to pop up anywhere there's a need, regardless of legality or formal training in how to run them, tells us something about capitalism and it's inherent compatibility with human nature.

Re: Buy Nothing Day

#65

Post by rohern »

illuminate wrote: post #57
rohern wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We are talking about different things. I am not talking about class mobility. I am talking about the wealth of nations.

Why are you stating that Capitalism must not be restricted or impeded if the wealth of a nation is to increase?

I never made that statement. I did, however, claim that a major cause of the increase in the wealth of nations is capitalism. I made this claim because I have studied economics and history and I have read and heard multiple compelling arguments supporting this claim.

Re: Buy Nothing Day

#66

Post by rohern »

jmduke wrote: post #5

It's important to read any adbusters content with their context in mind. I think they produce a lot of interesting content, but their agenda (I don't mean that to be denigrating) muddles a lot of their arguments. This article to me makes an important point -- Black Friday has pretty much descended into self-parody -- but couching it as an anti-capitalism argument (instead of an anti-consumerism one) ruins the message…

This is crap reasoning, sorry jmduke. You might as well say that you need to read the writing of a racist while keeping in mind that he is a racist, so you should not worry too much when he makes racist statements.

The criticisms that people are positing here are exactly criticisms of the agenda of Adbusters. The whole thing is about keeping their context in mind and objecting to it.

Re: Buy Nothing Day

#67

Post by rohern »

illuminate wrote: post #47
alainbryden wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is irrelevant to the point at hand - asking everyone to not buy things on one day, even if successful, merely postpones the retailers' revenues by a day or so. A more poignant campaign would revolve around convincing people not to buy certain unnecessary things at all, ever.

"A more poignant campaign would revolve around convincing people not to buy certain unnecessary things at all, ever." Which is not at odds with Buy Nothing Day and the associated movement. They're not just suggesting you delay purchases, but to buy from independent/local crafters or make your own gifts. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buy_Nothing_Day I haven't followed the philosophy to a T, but I've avoided the malls a…

> Supporting local/small businesses is always a good idea!

Why?

Re: Buy Nothing Day

#68

Post by creatrixcordis »

MSM wrote: post #61
creatrixcordis wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah right!!! Nice spin on it dude. Increasing their standard of living while being subject to poor environmental conditions because of their corrupt officials who are pushed to be corrupt by our corrupt politicians, and so on. It's easy for you to say that while living in the land of the plenty and the so called free. Why dont you focus exclusively on startups with a whole-world(env-friendly) minded approach, becaus…

I buy plenty of things to make me happy. I don't need the internet. Either do you. I also don't need to eat anything other than bean tortillas, but I will. I could probably get through my life wiping with single ply, but I'd rather have double. If that makes me a bad guy in your eyes, ah well. I'm sure a few of the beers I went out my way to purchase will ease the pain.

I guess moderation in peoples consumption levels and the types of consumption are relative, but i'm sure there is a line where they become dangerous for the rest of the people living on the planet, but we in the 1st world really don't understand where that line is since we are not faced with the issues other people in the world are, so we look down and say who cares that i have enough while you don't, that's just how things are, hurry up and get over here too so you can have this too, what happens when all the people do? what then?

We will just wait for someone else to figure it out while we comment on hacker news and have a beer and use the internet all at the same time and eat 1st world burritos and post on facebook with our 9 billion cell phones, all at the same time, hopefully we can all do this all at the same time, and in the process of figuring it out some of us are just unlucky to be born in a different vantage point, where we don't have cell phones, barely can carry water to drink to our families, try to fish in waters that are not polluted, education is scarce, all this because the ones born into the more favorable vantage point wait for others to fix the problems while they fat on their couches and complain that obesity is a problem because the corporations feed us fat food, and to think that we can actually help those people if we just want to? if we just approached the problem with the same vigor as we approach securing our oil-reserves, but who gives a fuck, all we do is just sit here on hacker news and complain and bitch and comment and feel good because we get points and we are on the main page but it all equates to nothing and i am guilty for it, so i'm going to go out and get breakfast at one of the many places available to me, happy thanksgiving

Re: Buy Nothing Day

#69

Post by hamoid »

mseebach wrote: post #15
bravoyankee wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A culture can stop being capitalistic and consumer-driven without becoming a fear driven dictatorship. Do you equate spending money with freedom and civil liberties? Is that the only way for you and I to be free, is to buy things?

Yes, the only way you can be free is to be free to produce, buy and sell things. And to do a million other activities that other people might not find virtuous.

The only way? I can conceive freedom without any buying and selling of things.

Re: Buy Nothing Day

#70

Post by krisc »

jeremyarussell wrote: post #19

Is it just me that's sick and tired of all these extreme all or nothing causes? It's either no patents or leave it the same, it's either capitalism is all bad or all good, it's either we are saving the planet or burning it as we go. You know we can just change certain laws in the patent system to get it fixed right? You understand that the idea of someone being able to sale their hard work for a living isn't evil rig…

No capitalism and go environment is definitely the overarching theme in this campaign. And I do believe that the prevailing capitalism is damaging to our earth. But they also make a point in advocating the support of local business to stimulate the local economy.
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