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Nobody understands the point of hybrid cars [video]

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Re: Nobody understands the point of hybrid cars [video]

#61

Post by caminanteblanco »

tedggh wrote: post #50

I have all three ICE, EV and hybrid at home. I was hesitant at first when getting the EV because we already had the hybrid, but we needed a second SUV to carry kids. After two years with the EV it became evident to me the hybrid doesn’t make sense. It has some of the gas savings of an EV but you still deal with the inconvenience of maintaining a ICE. My EV has received zero maintenance other than cleaning the cameras…

I think the problem a lot of non-Toyota manufacturers have run into is trying to have it both ways, like you said.

For better or worse (I say better), the Prius really committed to hybrid as its own form. Plenty of hybrids really are an electric motor and a ICE tacked together, and with that system, you're going to hit twice (at least) the problems of either one.

The thing I appreciate about the Toyota power-split device, is that it really manages to remove a lot of the ICE moving parts. You have no auxiliary belts, no alternator, starter motor, steering pump, etc, and for me and millions of other drivers, that's made getting to 200k miles a given.

I'm not sure which hybrid you have (and of course, ymmv) but I really think that nobody has done it like Toyota, at least until the 2020s

Re: Nobody understands the point of hybrid cars [video]

#62

Post by phkahler »

roelschroeven wrote: post #28
chem83 wrote: post #18

I always thought the problem with hybrids was the complexity of the drive train, but this video is challenging that notion. It argues that the hybrid pack (minus the battery, perhaps?) is more compact and simpler than a manual gearbox, even. It consists of two electric motors and a planetary gear set, which is seemingly simpler than clutch packs, gear sets and belts of regular transmissions, including CVTs. Time code…

Yes, but specifically about the Toyota's hybrid system. Other systems are more complex, they have a traditional engine and transmission and an electrical system on top.

Ford has been making very similar hybrids for 20+ years. The old Escape, the Fusion, CMax, Maverick. These are all the same general layout as the Prius.

Re: Nobody understands the point of hybrid cars [video]

#63

Post by Reason077 »

bluGill wrote: post #38
bee_rider wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On a completely tangential note, has anyone ever tried a hybrid that was like a diesel-electric train? The engine just charges the battery. IIRC it can be much simpler, no need for gearing at all, the engine just runs at a constant speed and the battery handles delivering variable amounts of power.

Called a series hybrid, and it has been done. However gears are more efficient than a generator -> motor, and charging a battery adds even more losses. Thus if the engine is running anyway you are better off just mechanically connecting it to the wheels. Trains don't do the above in large parts because the gears needed either wouldn't fit in the allowed space. (we may not be able to make them large enough either - th…

Series hybrids, where only electric motors drive the wheels, are becoming more common: Nissan now sells many models under their e-POWER brand.

Efficiency seems to match or exceed conventional hybrids in city driving, and only slightly less efficient for highway driving. And people like the instant torque and the smooth “EV like” driving feel.

Re: Nobody understands the point of hybrid cars [video]

#64

Post by steveBK123 »

gregolo wrote: post #58
caminanteblanco wrote: post #46

For anyone who is concerned that this only applies to Toyota drivetrains (which was true for quite some time), Toyota made nearly all of their HEV patents (24,000 of them) completely royalty-free in 2019 [0]. At this point, I assume the only thing stopping manufacturers is their pre-existing investment in other technology. [0] https://global.toyota/en/newsroom/corporate/27512455.html

Ford Kuga (EU) / Escape (US) is built from those patents. It’s basically a copy of Toyota’s hybrid system. And it’s actually quite great, until it catches on fire.

> until it catches on fire

minor details

Re: Nobody understands the point of hybrid cars [video]

#65

Post by globular-toast »

I understood after I watched the brilliant Weber Auto video on it, published 5 years ago[0]. I liked it so much I "gently" encouraged my partner to get a Yaris hybrid, which gets about 69mpg average. It's not unusual to see 80+ on individual trips. She was a little sceptical about having an auto at first, because us Europeans still think it's 1980 and that manuals are superior, but she came around after a few minutes of driving.

To be fair, though, classic "slushbox" autos actually were/are garbage, as are chain actuated CVTs. The hybrid system gets you immediate acceleration like an electric, none of this awful lag you get with a slushbox.

It's hilarious to me that 34mpg is considered remarkably good, though. I know it's a "minivan" but my Golf GTI gets 42mpg and is actually fun and arguably cool. I can also fit 5 people, furniture, and 2.4m lengths of timber in it comfortably.

[0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O61WihMRdjM

Re: Nobody understands the point of hybrid cars [video]

#66

Post by rootusrootus »

gregolo wrote: post #58
caminanteblanco wrote: post #46

For anyone who is concerned that this only applies to Toyota drivetrains (which was true for quite some time), Toyota made nearly all of their HEV patents (24,000 of them) completely royalty-free in 2019 [0]. At this point, I assume the only thing stopping manufacturers is their pre-existing investment in other technology. [0] https://global.toyota/en/newsroom/corporate/27512455.html

Ford Kuga (EU) / Escape (US) is built from those patents. It’s basically a copy of Toyota’s hybrid system. And it’s actually quite great, until it catches on fire.

> It’s basically a copy of Toyota’s hybrid system

That is a myth which refuses to die. Ford developed their own system, and cross-licensed with Toyota over 20 years ago due to commonality of design.

Re: Nobody understands the point of hybrid cars [video]

#67

Post by phkahler »

torcete wrote: post #51

What I didn't get from the video is that there's a differential, but it is not connected to the wheels. Is there a second differential that connects MG1 to the wheels?

The planetary gear works as a differential with the Sun gear, Planet carrier, and Ring gear each connected to something. You can see how this works here:

https://eahart.com/prius/psd/

Re: Nobody understands the point of hybrid cars [video]

#68

Post by moparts »

tedggh wrote: post #50

I have all three ICE, EV and hybrid at home. I was hesitant at first when getting the EV because we already had the hybrid, but we needed a second SUV to carry kids. After two years with the EV it became evident to me the hybrid doesn’t make sense. It has some of the gas savings of an EV but you still deal with the inconvenience of maintaining a ICE. My EV has received zero maintenance other than cleaning the cameras…

How many miles in that two years? I put about 14k miles per year on my ICE and have only needed oil changes for 5 years. I know I have a big 200k service coming up but if I only look at the past five years it’s just oil every 7k and tires. Not THAT different, yes?

Re: Nobody understands the point of hybrid cars [video]

#69

Post by bluGill »

wat10000 wrote: post #59
bluGill wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Called a series hybrid, and it has been done. However gears are more efficient than a generator -> motor, and charging a battery adds even more losses. Thus if the engine is running anyway you are better off just mechanically connecting it to the wheels. Trains don't do the above in large parts because the gears needed either wouldn't fit in the allowed space. (we may not be able to make them large enough either - th…

I wonder if fuel efficiency just doesn't matter enough for trains, since they're already so efficient at turning motive energy into motion. Other costs may dominate.

Cost matter, but the dominate costs are important. The steam engine was more efficient than diesel when they scraped all the steam engines for diesel - steam engines need a lot more labor and so were more expensive despite using less fuel.

Re: Nobody understands the point of hybrid cars [video]

#70

Post by xtracto »

Reason077 wrote: post #63
bluGill wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Called a series hybrid, and it has been done. However gears are more efficient than a generator -> motor, and charging a battery adds even more losses. Thus if the engine is running anyway you are better off just mechanically connecting it to the wheels. Trains don't do the above in large parts because the gears needed either wouldn't fit in the allowed space. (we may not be able to make them large enough either - th…

Series hybrids, where only electric motors drive the wheels, are becoming more common: Nissan now sells many models under their e-POWER brand. Efficiency seems to match or exceed conventional hybrids in city driving, and only slightly less efficient for highway driving. And people like the instant torque and the smooth “EV like” driving feel.

I've got a Nissan Epower Kicks. I bought it exactly because the technology was different than standard Hybrid cars.

Here in Mexico there's no infra for fully electric cars, and they are still way too expensive.

The Nissan setup is pretty cool in that the generator is quite small, and the car doesn't need all the mechanical parts of an ICE car. It also gives us the range of a standard ICE car. So far it has been pretty good.

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