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Strange crystals found inside wreckage from the first nuclear bomb test

scientificamerican.com

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Re: Strange crystals found inside wreckage from the first nuclear bomb test

#61

Post by dreamcompiler »

dmurray wrote: post #10

What was special about the first nuclear test, rather than the thousands of others, at least hundreds of which were also in the Nevada desert? Obviously it's historically significant, and the new forms of matter were first discovered there , so that's why trinitite is named after the site. But 80 years later, wouldn't we expect the other bomb sites to have just as many interesting chemical reactions?

Availability is probably the answer.

I have some Trinitite. It's easy to obtain. You can buy it in rock shops, especially in the Southwest. Back in the day, when they opened the Trinity site to the public a couple of days a year, there was no prohibition on collecting Trinitite. That's why rock shops have it.

They still open the site to the public one or two days a year but they won't let you collect Trinitite any more. You can walk on it but don't try to put it in your pocket or a person with a gun will pull you aside for a chat.

https://www.nps.gov/thingstodo/alamogordo-visit-the-trinity-...

There's not much public access to the sites in Nevada; at least until the DOE resumes their bus tours and they're even more hard over about not letting you pick up anything.

https://nnss.gov/community/monthly-community-public-tours/

Re: Strange crystals found inside wreckage from the first nuclear bomb test

#62

Post by shever73 »

shagie wrote: post #52
shever73 wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the three-and-ten, four-and-ten way of expressing numbers is primarily an ancient Greek thing. The modern numbers are expressed differently (δεκατέσσερα / dekatessara for fourteen, for example). In a lot of older European languages 11 and 12 behaved irregularly. You could argue that they do in English too (we don't have oneteen and twoteen). I haven't read of any particular reason for this, but I'd posit that…

French has some weirdness to its counting. 11 - 16 is specific words, 17 - 19 is "ten {number}" (dix-sept, dix-huit, dix-neuf). There's also some fun when you get to 70... which is soixante-dix (sixty ten)... and 80 which is quatre-vingts (four twenties)... and 90 as quatre-vingt-dix (four twenties ten). Some dialects of French outside of France have changed how they count.

Yes, there are lots weird remnants of the vigesimal system around in French. You can see it in names like the Quinze-Vingts hospital - literally "fifteen twenties" because it was designed to have 300 beds.

Re: Strange crystals found inside wreckage from the first nuclear bomb test

#63

Post by eesmith »

kombookcha wrote: post #29
eesmith wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We do. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trinitite#Similar_materials says "Occasionally, the name trinitite is broadly applied to all glassy residues of nuclear bomb testing, not just the Trinity test" and lists hiroshimaite and kharitonchiki as similar glassy residues from Hiroshima and the Semipalatinsk Test Site, respectively. The general term for for the fused glass-like material formed during a nuclear test" seems t…

Adding to this, I seem to recall that the specific geological/chemical conditions on the site is consequential for the sorts of glass produced. So presumably, Hiroshmiaite and Trinitite would actually be physically distinct as a material. As I recall, research on meteorite impacts use the similarly formed Impactite to deduce various things about ancient impact sites. As an aside, I think they also do really elaborate…

Yes, even the steel support structure and copper electrical wiring affect the trinitite composition.

Re: Strange crystals found inside wreckage from the first nuclear bomb test

#64

Post by cratermoon »

fhars wrote: post #40
gapan wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As the sibling comment already said "kai" (pronounced ke like in keg) just means "and". So it literally means 4 and 10 sides in greek. But I have often seen it written as τετραδεκάεδρο (tetradecahedron) in greek as well, so without the kai part. I'm not sure why it is 4 and 10 instead of 14 though. It would be more natural in greek that way (δεκατετράεδρο - decatetrahedron). Maybe it is for putting the distinctive pa…

Nobody would be so weird as to put the "four" first when pronouncing "14". :-)

Four score and seven years ago...

Re: Strange crystals found inside wreckage from the first nuclear bomb test

#65

Post by colechristensen »

shever73 wrote: post #43
gapan wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As the sibling comment already said "kai" (pronounced ke like in keg) just means "and". So it literally means 4 and 10 sides in greek. But I have often seen it written as τετραδεκάεδρο (tetradecahedron) in greek as well, so without the kai part. I'm not sure why it is 4 and 10 instead of 14 though. It would be more natural in greek that way (δεκατετράεδρο - decatetrahedron). Maybe it is for putting the distinctive pa…

I think the three-and-ten, four-and-ten way of expressing numbers is primarily an ancient Greek thing. The modern numbers are expressed differently (δεκατέσσερα / dekatessara for fourteen, for example). In a lot of older European languages 11 and 12 behaved irregularly. You could argue that they do in English too (we don't have oneteen and twoteen). I haven't read of any particular reason for this, but I'd posit that…

There were plenty of base-12 number systems in Europe, one way of counting to 12 is using your thumb to count the bones in the other 4 fingers, one hand for the 1's digit, the other for the 10's digit.

12 being divisible by 2,3,4,6; 10 being divisible by 2,5 -- means base 12 is easier to multiply and divide to reach whole numbers.

Re: Strange crystals found inside wreckage from the first nuclear bomb test

#66

Post by cratermoon »

autoexec wrote: post #23
Towaway69 wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We’re a product of nature, it’s mistaken to believe we are above nature or that nuclear weapons aren’t also part of nature. We’re also very much dependent on nature and natural forces. So everything we do is, even if many steps removed, still an act of nature.

Diamonds are also product of nature, but when we grow them in a lab they aren't often considered to be "naturally formed". It's just that the lab we used in this instance was part of the Jornada del Muerto.

Side note: Jornado del Muerto translates to English as Journey of Death.

Re: Strange crystals found inside wreckage from the first nuclear bomb test

#67

Post by therwex »

kombookcha wrote: post #29
eesmith wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We do. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trinitite#Similar_materials says "Occasionally, the name trinitite is broadly applied to all glassy residues of nuclear bomb testing, not just the Trinity test" and lists hiroshimaite and kharitonchiki as similar glassy residues from Hiroshima and the Semipalatinsk Test Site, respectively. The general term for for the fused glass-like material formed during a nuclear test" seems t…

Adding to this, I seem to recall that the specific geological/chemical conditions on the site is consequential for the sorts of glass produced. So presumably, Hiroshmiaite and Trinitite would actually be physically distinct as a material. As I recall, research on meteorite impacts use the similarly formed Impactite to deduce various things about ancient impact sites. As an aside, I think they also do really elaborate…

Probably no Hiroshiaite as the explosion there was at higher altitude of 580 meters. Trinity explosion was close to the desert surface (30 meters). The radius of trinite formation was about 300 meters around the tower so none would have formed at Hiroshima.

Re: Strange crystals found inside wreckage from the first nuclear bomb test

#68

Post by emptybits »

> "a quasicrystal — a kind of matter scientists once thought impossible that challenges traditional ideas about how solids form"

Whenever I read a phrase about scientists observing something they thought was impossible ... I get really excited for scientists in that field! :-)

Re: Strange crystals found inside wreckage from the first nuclear bomb test

#69

Post by radiorental »

zarzavat wrote: post #37
thejohnconway wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To my ears “Molten” would imply that the sand is currently in liquid form. The sense ”melted” is used here, as having been melted, seems right. You melt sand to get molten sand, right?

"Melted sand" sounds strange because English already has a word for that: "glass".

[dead]

Re: Strange crystals found inside wreckage from the first nuclear bomb test

#70

Post by adrian_b »

HighGoldstein wrote: post #44
normie3000 wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

kai means "and" I guess like asking why 120 is said "one hundred and twenty" in some dialects. Maybe that's how 14 and 12 are written in Greek.

The Greek term would be decatetrahedron.

Ancient Greeks did not say "dekatetra" for 14, i.e. ten-four, but as it is correctly written in TFA, they said "tetrakaideka" for 14, i.e. "four-and-ten", which is actually close to English "fourteen".

For example, already Aristotle used "dipoda" (2-feet) for humans and birds, "tetrapoda" (4-feet) for other terrestrial vertebrates and "hexapoda" (6-feet) for insects. After the same model one can say "oktopoda" (8-feet) about spiders and "tetrakaidekapoda" (14-feet) about woodlice.

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