Airport Security Is Killing Us • Hacker News Board

Re: Airport Security Is Killing Us

#61

Post by znowi » Tue, Nov 20, 2012, 7:31 PM UTC

grecy wrote: post #21

anu_gupta wrote: post #13

Tangentially - the thing that most surprised me about this article was reading that over 150,000 Americans have been murdered in less than a decade. I find that number utterly staggering. Wikipedia says that the homicide rate in the US is 4.2 per 100,000, which is more than 2.5 times the rate in Canada and 3.5 times the rate in the UK.

America has the highest murder rate of the developed world, higher even than a chunk of developing countries. My quick glace showed America at 4.2, the next developed country is Finland at 2.2, so living in America you're 1.9 times more likely to be murdered than any other developed country. Of course, the vast majority of Developed countries have a murder rate less than 1.0 per 100,000 people. http://en.wikipedia.or…

Finland 2.2 - this is surprising. I expected less than 1.

Re: Airport Security Is Killing Us

#62

Post by aneth4 » Tue, Nov 20, 2012, 7:32 PM UTC

pyre wrote: post #54

aneth4 wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Custody searches in this context are forbidden by the fourth amendment, by the way, regardless of what the TSA's legal team may claim. As is x-raying baggage and body-scans. Fourth amendment rights don't apply to the same extent when you are on private property, when there are balancing security concerns, when you enter a courthouse, when you enter a school, etc. You know the deal when you enter these places and yo…

> when you enter a courthouse > you have a choice whether to enter them Not necessarily...

True, though the security concerns of weapons in a courthouse surely justify a baggage scan, metal detector, and pat down. Security is far more of an issue in a courthouse even than on a plane.

Re: Airport Security Is Killing Us

#63

Post by Osiris » Tue, Nov 20, 2012, 7:33 PM UTC

WarDekar wrote: post #14

joonix wrote: post #2

I opt-out of the x-ray scanner every single time, and so should you. It really doesn't take much longer to go through the process. Show up 3 minutes earlier if you have to. You're rushing to the gate, for what? To sit there longer? Boarding with the crowds is stressful anyways. The most relaxed way to board is at the very end -- there's no more line, I just walk right into the plane, most people are seated, and just…

I used to opt out, but I also get fed up with being groped by old men. I'm not sure what the solution is because unless a significant portion of people opt out this doesn't accomplish anything and my groin has been fondled a few too many times at this point for me to want to continue opting out. The entire procedure is completely bogus of course- everyt time I fly in the US now it's a question of: "How do I want to b…

I opted out or chose a lane without a scanner for a long time until they implemented the new groin-feeling pat down. I opted out and got that enhanced pat down one day and I felt more uncomfortable with someone physically touching me than I did with the idea of someone seeing a picture of me. So now, I try to find a lane without a scanner, but I have gone through a scanner a few times just to avoid being felt-up. And yes, I'm entirely certain that one of the reasons for that pat down process was to push people toward not opting out.

Re: Airport Security Is Killing Us

#64

Post by grecy » Tue, Nov 20, 2012, 7:33 PM UTC

tadfisher wrote: post #51

grecy wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

America has the highest murder rate of the developed world, higher even than a chunk of developing countries. My quick glace showed America at 4.2, the next developed country is Finland at 2.2, so living in America you're 1.9 times more likely to be murdered than any other developed country. Of course, the vast majority of Developed countries have a murder rate less than 1.0 per 100,000 people. http://en.wikipedia.or…

The United States is very large, and the homicide rate varies wildly between states and cities. Where I live, Oregon, the homicide rate is 2.1 per 100,000 people, a little bit better than Finland as a whole. Hawaii is at 1.2, New Hampshire and Vermont are at 1.3, and Minnesota is at 1.4. Contrast those with Louisiana at 11.2 per 100,000 people (!), Mississippi at 8.0, New Mexico at 7.5, and South Carolina at 6.8. It'…

I find it interesting when Americans don't want America as a whole to be compared to other countries as a whole, because inevitably it makes for an unfavorable comparison.

Of course looking at a country-wide statistic is an average across the whole country - that's the entire point. I'm sure if you really wanted to, you could find a part of Oregon where the homicide rate is 0.1, but that doesn't tell us much about the bigger picture.

Is America one united country, or isn't it?

Re: Airport Security Is Killing Us

#65

Post by Coincoin » Tue, Nov 20, 2012, 7:33 PM UTC

indiecore wrote: post #5

If you can avoid it* never travel through the united states. *Edit

Exactly. I'm Canadian and because of the TSA, I don't travel through the US anymore, even if it means my ticket are a couple hundred dollars more expensive.

Re: Airport Security Is Killing Us

#66

Post by [deleted] » Tue, Nov 20, 2012, 7:34 PM UTC

aneth4 wrote: post #49

jpxxx wrote: post #38

A quibble, because this whole fucking disgusting thing fills me with limitless rage: TSA agents do not perform 'pat-downs'. Pat-downs are very quick checks to see if any obvious weapons are being concealed on someone's body. Police will do these before putting a suspect into a police vehicle, for instance. TSA employees do what are called 'custody searches', designed to find contraband material on detainees. These ar…

> Custody searches in this context are forbidden by the fourth amendment, by the way, regardless of what the TSA's legal team may claim. As is x-raying baggage and body-scans. Fourth amendment rights don't apply to the same extent when you are on private property, when there are balancing security concerns, when you enter a courthouse, when you enter a school, etc. You know the deal when you enter these places and yo…

[deleted]

Re: Airport Security Is Killing Us

#67

Post by tptacek » Tue, Nov 20, 2012, 7:36 PM UTC

philwelch wrote: post #57

tptacek wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No they're not. The Supreme Court has repeatedly upheld an exemption for searches in the context of airport security under the doctrine of administrative searches, where the state's legitimate interest overrides the cost (to individuals) of the search, and where no one person is singled out by the searches. Your argument doesn't even follow logically, as all the 4th Amendment requires is that searches be "reasonable"…

It's also important to note that you consent to the search by choosing to travel by air in the United States.

I remember that consent/voluntarism being important to the lawfulness of airport searches, but I thought the big two elements of administrative search were (1) searches not being intended to collect evidence for criminal investigations and (2) officers not having discretion as to who to search.

Re: Airport Security Is Killing Us

#68

Post by marssaxman » Tue, Nov 20, 2012, 7:36 PM UTC

joonix wrote: post #2

I opt-out of the x-ray scanner every single time, and so should you. It really doesn't take much longer to go through the process. Show up 3 minutes earlier if you have to. You're rushing to the gate, for what? To sit there longer? Boarding with the crowds is stressful anyways. The most relaxed way to board is at the very end -- there's no more line, I just walk right into the plane, most people are seated, and just…

I'm with you - I opt-out every time, and I will keep on doing so as long as I can. I have yet to have any trouble with my carry-on.

What's more, these days I always choose to fly in a kilt, commando style, to make the whole process as awkward as possible for the screeners.

Re: Airport Security Is Killing Us

#69

Post by Osiris » Tue, Nov 20, 2012, 7:36 PM UTC

rplst8 wrote: post #10

Someone else did an analysis of airline travel and highway travel and came up with a similar finding. Blow up one plane per month over the continental US and flying would still be two orders of magnitude safer than driving or riding in an automobile over your lifespan. There's no proof that TSA is making things any safer either. No one will ever pull another fast one on the passengers of a plane again. We all know th…

* We all know that the planes themselves are weapons *

Which is why I don't understand why pilots have to be screened. They are flying a huge flying bomb. What will screening them for nail-clippers solve? (Side note: I did, in fact, have my nail clippers taken by the TSA once)

Re: Airport Security Is Killing Us

#70

Post by marssaxman » Tue, Nov 20, 2012, 7:37 PM UTC

[deleted] wrote: post #26

joonix wrote: post #2

I opt-out of the x-ray scanner every single time, and so should you. It really doesn't take much longer to go through the process. Show up 3 minutes earlier if you have to. You're rushing to the gate, for what? To sit there longer? Boarding with the crowds is stressful anyways. The most relaxed way to board is at the very end -- there's no more line, I just walk right into the plane, most people are seated, and just…

[deleted]

I don't care how bad the scanner is or isn't; they shouldn't exist, and I will refuse to submit as long as I have the option to do so.