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Online age verification is the hill to die on

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Re: Online age verification is the hill to die on

#61

Post by [deleted] »

rationalist wrote: post #26
speak_plainly wrote: post #21

The argument being made seems plausible but it’s complete fear mongering. The surveillance mechanisms already exist and are in play and people can be identified in endless ways. States have broad power to do what is being feared in the thread and haven’t already and to think that they’re waiting for this final piece of the puzzle to enact some insane regime is laughable. They could do that right now without the inter…

What I'm hearing you say: > Our freedom is already being eroded, saying that it is being eroded more is just fear mongering. > They want to hurt you, instead of fear mongering, find a middle ground where they're hurting you differently.

[deleted]

Re: Online age verification is the hill to die on

#62

Post by Bender »

_ink_ wrote: post #57
Bender wrote: post #8

The one and only method I will participate in is server operators setting a RTA header [1] for URL's that may contain adult or user-generated or user-contributed content and the clients having the option to detect that header and trigger parental controls if they are enabled by the device owner. That should suffice to protect most small children. Teens will always get around anything anyone implements as they are alr…

How are they supposed to fine sites out of their jurisdiction?

One possible method [1] though I am sure the network and security engineers here on HN could come up with simpler methods. Just blocking domains on the popular CDN's would kill access for most people as by default most browsers are using them for DoH DNS.

[1] - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47950843

Re: Online age verification is the hill to die on

#63

Post by acheron »

bee_rider wrote: post #40
kelseyfrog wrote: post #20

[flagged]

Basically every article on this site has a comment complaining that the article is AI. Who knows. Maybe “complaining about AI” is the new AI way of fitting in.

I just flag all the AI complaints. Perfect example of the guideline about “don’t complain about tangential issues” or whatever the wording is.

Re: Online age verification is the hill to die on

#64

Post by jMyles »

Forgeties79 wrote: post #51
goda90 wrote: post #41

Age verification can be achieved without destroying anonymity and privacy online using anonymous credential systems, but it has to be designed that way from the ground up, and no one pushing age verification is interested in preserving privacy.

And they continue to act like opposition just wants a wild west/don't care about kids, which is the oldest trick in the book. We just don't want "protect the kids" leveraged to tear up our rights. It's addressing a real problem in a bad way.

I mean, it's more than that. I _want_ to protect kids' right to be part of the human connectome. The "protect the kids" (by disallowing them their freedom of thought on the internet) is just naked ageism.

Re: Online age verification is the hill to die on

#65

Post by bakugo »

bee_rider wrote: post #40
kelseyfrog wrote: post #20

[flagged]

Basically every article on this site has a comment complaining that the article is AI. Who knows. Maybe “complaining about AI” is the new AI way of fitting in.

> Basically every article on this site has a comment complaining that the article is AI

Just a hunch, but it may have something to with the fact that basically every article on this site is AI.

Re: Online age verification is the hill to die on

#66

Post by Larrikin »

bit-anarchist wrote: post #28
Larrikin wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Playing devil's advocate outside of debate club only serves to promote the devil's point of view. State your well reasoned opinion where you have considered the facts. Or just say you are in support of this openly.

Disagreed. I'm against invasive age verification methods, but to allow innacurate expectations to proliferate often becomes a bubble that pops, causing many to rebound to the other side, even if it's objectively worse. I much prefer to keep the tradeoffs clear, as it prevent betrayed expectations while still showcasing the unnacceptible downsides.

I'm firmly against the idea of Internet arguments presenting an opposing position under the guise of it not being their actual opinion so they can run away from debate. Devil's advocate is a technique that should be used in school to learn how to make stronger arguments.

All it does is covertly promote the idea by presenting it as reasonable and on an equal level to the other idea. While at the same time being able to shut down debate, by pretending they don't actually think that.

Anybody can say something like "but what about the good side of the African slave trade" but they will be debated and the argument shut down if they present it as their actual argument and engage in good faith with the comments. Using the devil's advocate technique is an extremely useful way to argue in bad faith, anonymously on the Internet.

Critique of the author's style is fine. An opposing view should honestly be presented as such.

Re: Online age verification is the hill to die on

#68

Post by jrajav »

logicchains wrote: post #42
retired wrote: post #34

Age verification on Australian social media has loopholes. Underage influencers use an agency to manage their social media for them. So anyone with enough followers or money can continue using social media under the age of 16. If you are going to implement age controls, you should implement a ban on underage influencers as well.

>If you are going to implement age controls, you should implement a ban on underage influencers as well. That just makes it even worse, why deprive the younger generation of one of the few remaining methods they have to make a decent income? We should be encouraging youth entrepreneurship, not making them spend even longer in classrooms learning things that LLMs will do better than them.

This is almost verbatim the same argument that people make in support of allowing child labor in factories.

Children do not need, nor are they entitled to, any kind of "freedom" to work for a living.

Re: Online age verification is the hill to die on

#69

Post by noah_buddy »

Ifkaluva wrote: post #22
emptybits wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When I read those seemingly outrageous claims, I didn't immediately dismiss the author. I allowed him to substantiate the claims and kept reading. I found myself agreeing with his argument and his train of thought of how, once digital IDs are accepted as a norm, they won't be unwound, and all online activity will likely require them and then, as he says, "Your children will never know what it was like to think freely…

The best way to not be in a digital cage is to opt out of the current digital products. Would that be such a bad thing? Frankly I would welcome a world in which kids are not using Instagram or TikTok. They don’t have to live in a cage if we don’t let them in the cage. Personally, my plan is that when age verification laws get passed, every service that requires ID is a service I stop using. And I expect my life to be…

What if all services require ID?

Let’s take a basic example: Wikipedia, which hosts pornography, easily could be a target of such legislation. Now there is infrastructure in place to know when you read about “Criticisms of policy X” and maybe it’s handled safely or maybe it’s handed directly to the government.

What about news? It’s a hop skip and leap from “age verify pornography with ID” to “age verify content about sexual abuse or violence.” Now the infrastructure is in place to see the alt-news criticisms you read.

Twitch or YouTube wouldn’t even wait to comply, ID verification is something that these corporations are already perfectly fine with. Now, you watching a history of your government’s crimes is a potentially tracked red flag that you’re a dissident to be watched.

Do you think if this sort of legislation is enacted, it will stop at large websites? It will be an excuse used by the government and supported by big tech firms to shut down any small websites which don’t comply. After all, Google, MS, et al, they would rather that your entire concept of the internet start and end in a service they control.

Re: Online age verification is the hill to die on

#70

Post by Lammy »

big85 wrote: post #38
Bender wrote: post #8

The one and only method I will participate in is server operators setting a RTA header [1] for URL's that may contain adult or user-generated or user-contributed content and the clients having the option to detect that header and trigger parental controls if they are enabled by the device owner. That should suffice to protect most small children. Teens will always get around anything anyone implements as they are alr…

Back in the late 90s or so, there was a proposal to have sites voluntarily set an age header, so parents/employers/etc could use to block the site if they wish. People said it would never work, because adult sites had a financial incentive not to opt in to reduce their own traffic.

> Back in the late 90s or so, there was a proposal

This one: https://www.w3.org/PICS/

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