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New copy of earliest poem in English, written 1,3k years ago, discovered in Rome

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Re: New copy of earliest poem in English, written 1,3k years ago, discovered in Rome

#61

Post by zozbot234 »

pouwerkerk wrote: post #3

Of course the article is about the archaeological discovery, but if you're curious (as I was) what the poem is, it's "Caedmon’s Hymn": "Now we must praise the protector of the heavenly kingdom the might of the measurer and his mind’s purpose, the work of the father of glory, as he for each of his wonders, the eternal Lord, established a beginning. He shaped first for the sons of the earth heaven as a roof, the holy m…

This was archival research, not archaeology though. This book was located in an archive, and it's mostly in Latin with the Old English content being quite incidental, which explains why it was not noticed until now.

Re: New copy of earliest poem in English, written 1,3k years ago, discovered in Rome

#62

Post by [deleted] »

simonask wrote: post #5
pouwerkerk wrote: post #3

Of course the article is about the archaeological discovery, but if you're curious (as I was) what the poem is, it's "Caedmon’s Hymn": "Now we must praise the protector of the heavenly kingdom the might of the measurer and his mind’s purpose, the work of the father of glory, as he for each of his wonders, the eternal Lord, established a beginning. He shaped first for the sons of the earth heaven as a roof, the holy m…

Thanks, came to the comments for this! Reading Old English as a Scandinavian is always interesting, because if you squint hard enough, you can easily see how the languages are so deeply related. So many modern Scandinavian words have what seem to be lost cognates in Old English, and I suppose vice versa. That said, I wish translations into contemporary English went further to preserve the etymology of certain words a…

[deleted]

Re: New copy of earliest poem in English, written 1,3k years ago, discovered in Rome

#63

Post by vi_sextus_vi »

WillAdams wrote: post #57
simonask wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks, came to the comments for this! Reading Old English as a Scandinavian is always interesting, because if you squint hard enough, you can easily see how the languages are so deeply related. So many modern Scandinavian words have what seem to be lost cognates in Old English, and I suppose vice versa. That said, I wish translations into contemporary English went further to preserve the etymology of certain words a…

Yes, but J.R.R. Tolkien wrote a guide on this (after seeing a couple of really bad quality translations) which later translations benefited from: https://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Guide_to_the_Names_in_The_Lo... that this was in _A Tolkien Compass_ which was one of the first books I purchased w/ my own money (along w/ _A Tolkien Reader_) is arguably a big part of why I chose to study languages early on in my life.

Pedantry:

Tolkien's "Middle-Earth" is itself a "folksy mistranslation"

Closer translation-- "Middle-Yard"

Old English word eardgeard =Earth-Yard

/ ˈæ͜ɑrdˌjæ͜ɑrd / "ardyard" /

https://www.theundergroundmap.com/article.html?id=104937

https://english.nsms.ox.ac.uk/oecoursepack/wanderer/notes/no...

Re: New copy of earliest poem in English, written 1,3k years ago, discovered in Rome

#64

Post by anthk »

wolfi1 wrote: post #54
anthk wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Conocimiento, conocer" in Spanish (to know).

isn't Spanish some form of Latin (being colonized by Rome for centuries), what I would be interested in, if there are some Vandal leftovers in nowadays Spanish

Guerra, perro, more that I can't remember, and a good chunk of names (in Spanish):

https://muyinteresante.okdiario.com/historia/60526.html

Well, let's see:

Perro, guerra, mes, pagar, ver, fuego, tierra, cima, perro, clero, altar, tribunal, rey... lots more. Tapa, dardo, ganso, ropa, guardia, sala, cama, barro, guijarro, zarza... more than anyone would think. Aspa, espía, brotar... and the -engo suffix. Visicothic and Celtic cultures are more ingrained in the North/Middle of Spain more than anyone would think despite everyone pictured it as a 100% Mediterranean culture.

Rico/rich, fresco/fresh, Blanco/blank, ganar/win... is not a coincidence.

Heck, tons of Medieval lore in the Castilles use a Gothic typeface...

Engo/enco suffix in words, related to -ingos in Gothic.

On names and surnames... Alonso, Alfonso, Guillermo, Fernando, Hernando, Hernández, López, -everything ending with -ez-, Leovigildo, Rodrigo and tons more.

Re: New copy of earliest poem in English, written 1,3k years ago, discovered in Rome

#65

Post by alex-moon »

I absolutely love post-Roman, pre-Norman British writing because it's so rare it gives the era a sense of mystery. This is of course the time when King Arthur is supposed to have lived. In the absence of contemporary records, the impulse to fill it with wizards and dragons is understandable.

Re: New copy of earliest poem in English, written 1,3k years ago, discovered in Rome

#66

Post by lproven »

nephihaha wrote: post #56
lproven wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, it's documented, as is tempura . It's like pancakes: you make them before the time of fasting. "The Time of X" in Spanish is "tempora X" and I would bet Portuguese is similar. There are loads. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Japanese_words_of_Port...

Gura mie eu.

She dty vea. :-)

(I do not actually speak Manx, but 2026 is the Year of the Manx Language. I should learn some.)

Re: New copy of earliest poem in English, written 1,3k years ago, discovered in Rome

#67

Post by lproven »

detourdog wrote: post #58
roysting wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’ve long thought about how wonderful it would be to create a contemporary new hybrid language whose objective was to unify communication along the very common linguistic origins at least some language clusters have. The core challenge of course is that it would be contrived in a time when top down imposition does not work as effectively. It’s a dream I have nonetheless. It would be a gargantuan effort just alone to…

I’m sure you are aware of Esperanto. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Esperanto

I preferred Interlingua...

But these days, Slovio would help me more.

I've tried Slovio on Slavs of about 10 nationalities. None had ever heard of it. All of then, no exceptions, could just understand it perfectly well, to their great surprise.

https://www.interlingua.com/interlingua-en/

https://www.slovio.com/

Re: New copy of earliest poem in English, written 1,3k years ago, discovered in Rome

#68

Post by vintermann »

vi_sextus_vi wrote: post #63
WillAdams wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, but J.R.R. Tolkien wrote a guide on this (after seeing a couple of really bad quality translations) which later translations benefited from: https://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Guide_to_the_Names_in_The_Lo... that this was in _A Tolkien Compass_ which was one of the first books I purchased w/ my own money (along w/ _A Tolkien Reader_) is arguably a big part of why I chose to study languages early on in my life.

Pedantry: Tolkien's "Middle-Earth" is itself a "folksy mistranslation" Closer translation-- "Middle-Yard" Old English word eardgeard =Earth-Yard / ˈæ͜ɑrdˌjæ͜ɑrd / "ardyard" / https://www.theundergroundmap.com/article.html?id=104937 https://english.nsms.ox.ac.uk/oecoursepack/wanderer/notes/no...

I guess that's where Tolkien's "Arda" comes from as well then.

Re: New copy of earliest poem in English, written 1,3k years ago, discovered in Rome

#69

Post by nephihaha »

lproven wrote: post #66
nephihaha wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Gura mie eu.

She dty vea. :-) (I do not actually speak Manx, but 2026 is the Year of the Manx Language. I should learn some.)

I know a little. I was taught by Brian Stowell many years ago and have his novel here along with a Manx Bible.

Re: New copy of earliest poem in English, written 1,3k years ago, discovered in Rome

#70

Post by mock-possum »

pbhjpbhj wrote: post #23
rubzah wrote: post #20

This is the text in Old English for anyone looking: https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems/47296/caedmons-hymn-5... Actually, here is the full text with the modern English inserted: Nu scilun herga hefenricæs uard Now let us praise Heaven-Kingdom's guardian, metudæs mehti and his modgithanc the Maker's might and his mind's thoughts, uerc uuldurfadur sue he uundra gihuæs the work of the glory-father—of every wonder, e…

Oh, what? Is "eci" (eternal?) the origin of "Ecki Thump" - Yorkshire version of OMG?

Oh my god is that where Icky Thump comes from
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