Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

A. J. Ayer – ‘What I Saw When I Was Dead’ (1988)

philosopher.eu

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

61–70 of 165 posts

Re: A. J. Ayer – ‘What I Saw When I Was Dead’ (1988)

#61

Post by majkinetor »

BoardsOfCanada wrote: post #31
adammarples wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Incredibly easy to explain this without trying hard. The subject has some sense of movement forwards, and the brain rationalises it, like we do in dreams, imagining a tunnel or a canoe or whatever familiar thing is associated with that feeling of drifting or flying. So we can conclude that maybe near death experiences cause a feeling of falling or drifting, and is a bit like dreaming - not that objective reality shou…

We're talking past each other. The problem isn't coming up with a hypothesis of why experiences differ according to experiences. Start by explaining how there can be any experience at all after an hour without oxygen to the brain. But after that we come to a stage where experiences differ so much that they aren't reconcilable in one objective reality and that's what I tried to address.

> Start by explaining how there can be any experience at all after an hour without oxygen to the brain.

Some cells are still technically alive after 1 hour mark in the sense that there is no necrosis and cell membrane is still operating. This depends on cell type and nourishment - for example cells that have high amount of CoQ10 can live longer etc.

In any case, brain is definitely NOT 100% dead in a sense that ALL of its cells are necrotic which might explain why it is in a dream like state.

Also, I doubt 1 hour mark is regular thing in NDE.

Re: A. J. Ayer – ‘What I Saw When I Was Dead’ (1988)

#62

Post by ericmcer »

BoardsOfCanada wrote: post #14

Probably the contrarian take, but an informed one. Near death experiences are probably the best way we have to assess the nature of reality. Now, it's almost impossible to reach people who aren't ready with any arguments, but I'll outline some possible steps for anyone who's on the verge. - Go to youtube, type in NDE and listen to a few - Try to come up with a "rational" explanation (hallucinations, the brain dumping…

I never remotely believed this because I don't even believe in a "me" really.

One hard hit in the head can literally change your personality entirely, then you have alzheimers and all the other degenerative brain diseases that will erase "you". Even if you avoid all that "you" will be wildly different every 15-20 years.

Christianity gets through this by saying you will return to your prime. That just seems kind of childish to me though, like "yeah when you die you and all your friends and family are gonna be 25 and you live in paradise together forever".

How do you resolve the idea of an eternal consciousness with the very real and common occurence of people losing their consciousness while they are still alive?

Re: A. J. Ayer – ‘What I Saw When I Was Dead’ (1988)

#63

Post by lapcat »

card_zero wrote: post #60
lapcat wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I do get the sense that many atheists not only reject God & the afterlife but actually don't want there to be a God or an afterlife. I feel that eternity in Heaven would actually be Hell, because nothing would matter. No danger, no failure, no challenge, no goals, no purpose. What gives life meaning are mortality, limitations, beginnings and endings, progress. I recently watched the film "Eternity" on Apple TV, sta…

Problems, yes. "Biology is going to kill me soon" shouldn't have to be one of those problems, and in fact I think it makes us all slightly crazy in different ways, from not caring about the future to unscrupulously believing in afterlives.

I suspect you indended to reply to the sibling comment https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47827905 which contains the word "problems" rather than my comment which does not?

Re: A. J. Ayer – ‘What I Saw When I Was Dead’ (1988)

#64

Post by olalonde »

BoardsOfCanada wrote: post #14

Probably the contrarian take, but an informed one. Near death experiences are probably the best way we have to assess the nature of reality. Now, it's almost impossible to reach people who aren't ready with any arguments, but I'll outline some possible steps for anyone who's on the verge. - Go to youtube, type in NDE and listen to a few - Try to come up with a "rational" explanation (hallucinations, the brain dumping…

> the brain dumping DMT

Why do you exclude this hypothesis? It's well known that some drugs such as DMT do cause very similar hallucinations among people, even across cultures (as is the case with NDE).

Re: A. J. Ayer – ‘What I Saw When I Was Dead’ (1988)

#65

Post by bobbyswiss »

LocalH wrote: post #28
BoardsOfCanada wrote: post #14

Probably the contrarian take, but an informed one. Near death experiences are probably the best way we have to assess the nature of reality. Now, it's almost impossible to reach people who aren't ready with any arguments, but I'll outline some possible steps for anyone who's on the verge. - Go to youtube, type in NDE and listen to a few - Try to come up with a "rational" explanation (hallucinations, the brain dumping…

Objective reality exists, but nobody can ever perceive it, at least not while they're perceiving things through the filter of their body

What's realer than reality as it's directly experienced?

Re: A. J. Ayer – ‘What I Saw When I Was Dead’ (1988)

#66

Post by BobbyTables2 »

ericmcer wrote: post #62
BoardsOfCanada wrote: post #14

Probably the contrarian take, but an informed one. Near death experiences are probably the best way we have to assess the nature of reality. Now, it's almost impossible to reach people who aren't ready with any arguments, but I'll outline some possible steps for anyone who's on the verge. - Go to youtube, type in NDE and listen to a few - Try to come up with a "rational" explanation (hallucinations, the brain dumping…

I never remotely believed this because I don't even believe in a "me" really. One hard hit in the head can literally change your personality entirely, then you have alzheimers and all the other degenerative brain diseases that will erase "you". Even if you avoid all that "you" will be wildly different every 15-20 years. Christianity gets through this by saying you will return to your prime. That just seems kind of ch…

I wonder if there even is such a thing as “eternal consciousness” the way people assume.

It’s rare for me to remember -aspects of my daily life in dreams.

I would think being dead would be a significant hinderance.

Re: A. J. Ayer – ‘What I Saw When I Was Dead’ (1988)

#67

Post by card_zero »

md224 wrote: post #22

The most striking thing to me is that Ayer hopes there isn't life after death. > My recent experiences have slightly weakened my conviction that my genuine death, which is due fairly soon, will be the end of me, though I continue to hope that it will be . (italics mine) I do get the sense that many atheists not only reject God & the afterlife but actually don't want there to be a God or an afterlife. (I think Thomas…

One thing I sometimes hope is true, in my materialistic atheistic way, is to do with the problem of sci-fi teleportation. See, if you go through a transporter on Star Trek, you're taken apart and reassembled. This makes people worry, ludicrously, that the reassembled version "isn't really me". You could after all refrain from taking the original apart, and simply duplicate people. Both copies of some guy called Bernard would claim "I am Bernard", and both would be right.

So this makes me think that from moment to moment, as we pass through time at one second per second, it's as if we're being sent through a transporter. That is to say, if in the far future after my death I am reassembled, or even if just a close imitation of me is assembled from whatever data they can get hold of, then that would be no different from me, or Bernard, being brought back to life. "I am Bernard", he would say, and he'd still be right. Of course other Bernard wouldn't get to share his experiences, but so what. My former self can't share my present experiences.

So, why hope for this to happen at all? It has to be that what we're emotionally invested in is not really "continuity of experience", which is a myth, but continuity of ideas. It's nice if those ideas can sit together in the coherent context of a mind. The Woody Allen quote is "I don't want to achieve immortality through my work; I want to achieve immortality through not dying." But perhaps in fact through your work is good enough, really? Like a close second.

What I mean to say is, I don't so much hope for an afterlife, as to discover that it philosophically doesn't matter anyway. Though I prefer people not dead.

Re: A. J. Ayer – ‘What I Saw When I Was Dead’ (1988)

#68

Post by BobbyTables2 »

Swizec wrote: post #33
BoardsOfCanada wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So we agree but one point: There are tens of thousands of NDEs happening under monitored conditions (operating tables) when we know for a fact that the brain is out of oxygen and energy according to any know physical (not to mention evolutionary) mechanism, and that has to be explained.

> NDEs happening under monitored conditions (operating tables) I had general anesthesia 10 days ago. There was no NDE, felt like they flicked an off switch then turned me back on a few hours later. They wheeled me from the prep room towards the OR, opened the big door, and then I was in a different room waking up from anesthesia. That’s it.

That’s been my exact experience in each of my 5 occasions.

I also once semi-fainted while standing up. Felt unusually calm and care free as my head bashed against a nearby object. Fortunately it wasn’t serious.

Re: A. J. Ayer – ‘What I Saw When I Was Dead’ (1988)

#69

Post by twic »

card_zero wrote: post #25
BoardsOfCanada wrote: post #14

Probably the contrarian take, but an informed one. Near death experiences are probably the best way we have to assess the nature of reality. Now, it's almost impossible to reach people who aren't ready with any arguments, but I'll outline some possible steps for anyone who's on the verge. - Go to youtube, type in NDE and listen to a few - Try to come up with a "rational" explanation (hallucinations, the brain dumping…

Here's Plato's thing, the "myth of Er": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myth_of_Er What are the unaccountably unlikely commonalities that I should be noticing? Between this and the article, I see only: some kind of colored light, some kind of officiating beings, and a river (A.J.Ayer says he presumably had the Styx in mind, though amusingly in the actual ancient Greek account it's a different river and there's no need…

Not long ago, a local mad church put a packet of pamphlets through my door, one of which was this magnificent tale:

https://avesselofhonour.com/2023/06/28/48-hours-in-hell/

Some of those features show up there too. Of course, this comes from a Christian background, and draws on that. But it does have a river, and there's no river in hell in the bible.

Re: A. J. Ayer – ‘What I Saw When I Was Dead’ (1988)

#70

Post by BobbyTables2 »

pino999 wrote: post #32
md224 wrote: post #22

The most striking thing to me is that Ayer hopes there isn't life after death. > My recent experiences have slightly weakened my conviction that my genuine death, which is due fairly soon, will be the end of me, though I continue to hope that it will be . (italics mine) I do get the sense that many atheists not only reject God & the afterlife but actually don't want there to be a God or an afterlife. (I think Thomas…

It is the safest and easiest solution. You die, nothing happens. When there is an afterlife or perhaps even eternity, the problems begin.

Definitely!. Hence people must support religious institutions to guide them to the afterlife…

Imagine taking sports coaching from one who never played…

Post reply on HN