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Cybersecurity looks like proof of work now

dbreunig.com

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Re: Cybersecurity looks like proof of work now

#61
Cybersecurity has always been proof of work. Fuck, most of software development is proof of work by that logic. Thats why many attacks originate from countries were the cost of living is a fraction of the COL in the United States. They can throw more people at the problem because its cheaper to do so.

But I don't really get the hype, we can fix all the vulnerabilities in the world but people are still going to pick up parking-lot-USBs and enter their credentials into phishing sites.

Re: Cybersecurity looks like proof of work now

#63

If you have a limited budget of tokens as a defender, maybe the best thing to spend them on is not red teaming, but formalizing proofs of your code's security. Then the number of tokens required roughly scales with the amount and complexity of your code, instead of scaling with the number of tokens an attacker is willing to spend. (It's true that formalization can still have bugs in the definition of "secure" and doe…

> If you have a limited budget of tokens as a defender, maybe the best thing to spend them on is not red teaming, but formalizing proofs of your code's security.

You can only do this if you have a very clear sense of what your code should be doing. In most codebases I've ever worked with, frankly, no one has any idea.

Red teaming as an approach always has value, but one important characteristic it has is that you can apply red teaming without demanding any changes at all to your code standards, or engineering culture (and maybe even your development processes).

Most companies are working with a horrific sprawl of code, much of it legacy with little ownership. Red teaming, like buying tools and pushing for high coverage, is an attractive strategy to business leaders because it doesn't require them to tackle the hardest problems (development priorities, expertise, institutional knowledge, talent, retention) that factor into application security.

Formal verification is unfortunately hard in the ways that companies who want to think of security as a simple resource allocation problem most likely can't really manage.

I would love to work on projects/with teams that see formal verification as part of their overall correctness and security strategy. And maybe doing things right can be cheaper in the long run, including in terms of token burn. But I'm not sure this strategy will be applicable all that generally; some teams will never get there.

Re: Cybersecurity looks like proof of work now

#65
> Classical software engineering would have you believe that dependencies are good (we’re building pyramids from bricks)

Would it? I’m old school but I’ve never trusted these massive dependency chains.

That’s a nit.

We’re going to have to write more secure software, not just spend more.

Re: Cybersecurity looks like proof of work now

#66

There's still the question of access to the codebase. By all accounts, the best LLM cyber scanning approaches are really primitive - it's just a bash script that goes through every single file in the codebase and, for each one and runs a "find the vulns here" prompt. The attacker usually has even less access than this - in the beginning, they have network tools, an undocumented API, and maybe some binaries. You can d…

what about open source software?

Re: Cybersecurity looks like proof of work now

#67
post #53

There's still the question of access to the codebase. By all accounts, the best LLM cyber scanning approaches are really primitive - it's just a bash script that goes through every single file in the codebase and, for each one and runs a "find the vulns here" prompt. The attacker usually has even less access than this - in the beginning, they have network tools, an undocumented API, and maybe some binaries. You can d…

On that latest episode of 'Security Cryptography Whatever' [0] they mention that the time spent on improving the harness (at the moment) end up being outperformed by the strategy of "wait for the next model". I doubt that will continue, but it broke my intuition about how to improve them [0] https://securitycryptographywhatever.com/2026/03/25/ai-bug-f...

This is basically how you should treat all AI dev. Working around AI model limits for something that will take 3-6 months of work has very little ROI compared to building what works today and just waiting and building what works tomorrow tomorrow.

Re: Cybersecurity looks like proof of work now

#68
post #25
post #20

The article heavily quotes the "AI Security Institute" as a third-party analysis. It was the first I heard of them, so I looked up their about page, and it appears to be primarily people from the AI industry (former Deepmind/OpenAI staff, etc.), with no folks from the security industry mentioned. So while the security landscape is clearly evolving (cf. also Big Sleep and Project Zero), the conclusion of "to harden a…

I would be interested in which notable security researchers you can find to take the other side of this argument. I don't know anything about the "AI Security Institute", but they're saying something broadly mirrored by security researchers. From what I can see, the "debate" in the actual practitioner community is whether frontier models are merely as big a deal as fuzzing was, or something signficantly bigger. Fuzzi…

It's less that I think they would take the other side of the argument, than that they would lend some credence to the content of the analysis. For example, I would not particularly trust a bunch of AI researchers to come up with a representative set of CTF tasks, which seems to be the basis of this analysis.

Re: Cybersecurity looks like proof of work now

#69
> to harden a system you need to spend more tokens discovering exploits than attackers will spend exploiting them.

I, for the NFL front offices, created a script that exposed an API to fully automate Ticketmaster through the front end so that the NFL could post tickets on all secondary markets and dynamic price the tickets so if rain on a Sunday was expected they could charge less. Ticketmaster was slow to develop an API. Ticketmaster couldn't provide us permission without first developing the API first for legal reasons but told me they would do their best to stop me.

They switched over to PerimeterX which took me 3 days to get past.

Last week someone posted an article here about ChatGPT using Cloudflare Turnstile. [0] First, the article made some mistakes how it works. Second, I used the [AI company product] and the Chrome DevTools Protocol (CDP) to completely rewrite all the scripts intercepting them before they were evaluated -- the same way I was able to figure out PerimeterX in 3 days -- and then recursively solve controlling all the finger printing so that it controls the profile. Then it created an API proxy to expose ChatGPT for free. It required some coaching about the technique but it did most of the work in 3 hours.

These companies are spending 10s of millions of dollars on these products and considering what OpenAI is boasting about security, they are worthless.

[0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47566865

Re: Cybersecurity looks like proof of work now

#70
post #20

The article heavily quotes the "AI Security Institute" as a third-party analysis. It was the first I heard of them, so I looked up their about page, and it appears to be primarily people from the AI industry (former Deepmind/OpenAI staff, etc.), with no folks from the security industry mentioned. So while the security landscape is clearly evolving (cf. also Big Sleep and Project Zero), the conclusion of "to harden a…

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