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Where does all the milk go?

dhanishsemar.com

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Re: Where does all the milk go?

#61

Post by 9rx »

srean wrote: post #42
efskap wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They didn't say during pregnancy. Cows only produce milk after giving birth to a calf, so they're regularly inseminated. I think a lot of people don't realize we're hijacking their reproductive systems, instead assuming cows constantly produce milk. One could argue there's more suffering in a glass of milk than a steak, which makes ethical vegetarianism flawed despite its good intentions.

> One could argue there's more suffering in a glass of milk than a steak What I find quite bizarre that in India (where I am from) milk is considered ethically vegetarian whereas unfertilized chicken eggs are not. But the weirdest experience I have ever had was at the main Google cafeteria. One gentleman with a steak on his fresh plate was quizzing the attendant at length to be sure that the mashed potato was vegan.…

> After many months of thinking I found a plausible reason.

Carnivorous potatoes aren't as tasty?

Re: Where does all the milk go?

#62

Post by DiffTheEnder »

aanet wrote: post #9

The article itself is informative... But the diagrams, the low contrast on the web page, the font sizes, even some of the writing sounds...umm... AI-driven I'm not complaining about the use of (AI) tools per se, which is fine I guess. Something feels off. Somewhere between a little-off to a bit-more-off. Sorry. I'm trying to find the right words... Perhaps a bit too polished? (Can there be such a thing?)

Understand the concern here - I can confirm the diagrams/interactive elements on desktop were AI generated based on a diagram I made in powerpoint. The interactivity and JS elements is not something I'm not going to code myself. I'm a writer/thinker not a frontend dev.

The diagram is almost 1:1 the same except the cheese layout which it chose to do a bit differently. The mobile version of the diagram is an AI driven layout restructure - however still true to my source material.

The writing of the article is entirely my own. I'll choose to take it as a compliment that you think it's too polished haha.

Re: Where does all the milk go?

#63

Post by lotsofpulp »

mekdoonggi wrote: post #41
lotsofpulp wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I grew up with homogenized milk, and the mere smell of unhomogenized milk makes me want to vomit. Even boiled milk is awful. Unhomogenized cow milk was slightly more tolerable than unhomogenized ox milk.

Incredibly confused by this comment. Does homogenization alter the smell? >Even boiled milk is awful What does this have to do with homogenization? I wouldn't want boiled milk either unless it was to be used in a soup or something. Are you confusing homogenization with pasteurization?

Yes, my bad. I realize I don’t even know what homogenized milk is.

Re: Where does all the milk go?

#64

Post by 9rx »

hombre_fatal wrote: post #57
dbcurtis wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

? No, you need to educate yourself. The gestation period of a cow is approximately 9 months, similar to humans, by coincidence. Only a cow that has given birth to a calf will produce milk. The normal lactation period is 305 days before the cow is "dried up" before giving birth again. 10,000 pounds of milk is considered a good lactation total. Typically, cows are bred to calve once per year. Typically going through 10…

I was speaking from the perspective of the people in my opening sentence. How commonly known would you suspect those facts are in your comment? e.g. "[They might assume] cows simply produce milk like chickens lay eggs." It's normal to never really think about it -- our society is set up so that you never have to. The secretion comes in a jug, the meat comes in cellophane, and that's it.

> e.g. "[They might assume] cows simply produce milk like chickens lay eggs."

You may have a point that many have no idea how chickens work. Egg laying being like giving birth isn't an unreasonable explanation if you had to come up with one on the spot while completely in the dark. But most understand how milk is produced because even if they've never seen a cattlebeast, they deal with milk-producing humans daily.

Re: Where does all the milk go?

#66

Post by gus_massa »

mekdoonggi wrote: post #5
gus_massa wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It may have a higher % of fat. Have you tried to compare it with 95% milk and 5% dairy cream? (I'm not sure about the proportions.) Also, the pasteurization for long term unrefrigerated storage change the taste, so you can try with milk pasteurized for short term storage under refrigeration.

I'm in the US, so I'm speaking only about pasteurized for short term refrigeration. There are places that produce that, just without the homogenization. I think it is still the same percentage of fat, but I just like shaking it up.

Hi from Argentina! Here in Buenos Aires, we have "fresh" milk that must be refrigerated, and also milk in plastic bottles tat last 1 month and in tetrabriks that last 6 months.

In all of the presentations we used to have 3.3% and 1.5% fat content, but since a few years we have 3%, 2%, 1% and if you are very unlucky 0% that taste like water with watercolor. I'm not sure why we changed, probably some weird Big Cow conspiracy :)

All of that is pasteurized and homogenized.

Anyway, 3% is more tasty than 1%. I'm not sure about the difference with 3.3%. But the low fat one is recommended for diets.

---

When I was young, my grandfather has a small summer house like 1 mile away from a town that is like 10 miles away from the capital city of one of the provinces in the northwest of Argentina. We use to bought raw unpasteurized unhomogenized milk from someone that had cows nearby. But we obliviously had to boil it and then remove the big layer of cream at the top, that we used for cooking (as a replacement of butter).

The problem of boiling milk at home is that it must boil for 10 minutes or something and that changes the flavor. In a factory, they can boil milt at ~150°C (300°F) for 1 second instead, that kills the bacterias but does not change the flavor.

Re: Where does all the milk go?

#67

Post by 9rx »

aziaziazi wrote: post #56
9rx wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> they don't have to make calves. Where else are you going to get them from? A calf factory? > And the calves are an unwanted byproduct Am I misinterpreting you again? Heifer calves are the prized possession that ensures that your dairy continues into the future. Cows don't last forever (or even all that long). You maybe had a stronger case for bull calves, but now that modern breeding can select for heifers with ~90…

> modern breeding can select for heifers with ~90% confidence May you expend on this? I know we kinda have selection techniques for eggs to crush them before hatch but I guess that’s not what’s happening with milk caws as the diary is the main target and the cow need to give birth to start lactation. Or perhaps it’s the impregnating technique or some hormone therapy that tricks the odds? > in this day of age of high-…

> The non-desired sexed are not so valuable.

Huh? A holstein bull calf is selling for around $3,000 right now. That's... insane.

I remember from what doesn't seem all that long ago when fats didn't even fetch half that much. Beef has gone wild. If that's not valuable, what do you consider valuable?

Re: Where does all the milk go?

#68

Post by aziaziazi »

9rx wrote: post #67
aziaziazi wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> modern breeding can select for heifers with ~90% confidence May you expend on this? I know we kinda have selection techniques for eggs to crush them before hatch but I guess that’s not what’s happening with milk caws as the diary is the main target and the cow need to give birth to start lactation. Or perhaps it’s the impregnating technique or some hormone therapy that tricks the odds? > in this day of age of high-…

> The non-desired sexed are not so valuable. Huh? A holstein bull calf is selling for around $3,000 right now. That's... insane. I remember from what doesn't seem all that long ago when fats didn't even fetch half that much. Beef has gone wild. If that's not valuable, what do you consider valuable?

> $3,000 right now

I’m not sure we’re talking about the same data. Here’s the price evolution of lived calves in EU. They happen to be very high since 2025 (300€/500€ for diary/meat) but if you click « select all » on the top left you can see they use to be around 100€/200€ in the previous 10 years, going as low as 60€/head during covid.

https://agridata.ec.europa.eu/extensions/DashboardBeef/LiveA...

> what do you consider valuable

Fair point, I didn’t express it well: I don't think calves “have no value” in general, they’re sentient beings. However, as you pointed out and shown ahead, they are also part of a market and in some places their value is not high enough to care them well [0]. Some of them happen to be euthanized very shortly after birth:

> In one survey of Canadian farmers, an average of 19% of calves were euthanised at birth and of those respondents that euthanised calves, 34% reported using blunt force trauma (sharp blow from a solid object to the head) [1]

There’s also the "bob veal" (2–3 days to 1 month) [2], I guess the goal is to have a different taste but I’m not sure about that.

side note: I found the technique used to "select for heifers" you mentioned: the process is called flow cytometer and it sorts the sperm with a laser.

[0] https://www.journalofdairyscience.org/article/S0022-0302(17)...

[1] https://www.frontiersin.org/journals/veterinary-science/arti...

[2] https://www.britannica.com/technology/meat-processing/Labels...

Re: Where does all the milk go?

#69

Post by 9rx »

aziaziazi wrote: post #68
9rx wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The non-desired sexed are not so valuable. Huh? A holstein bull calf is selling for around $3,000 right now. That's... insane. I remember from what doesn't seem all that long ago when fats didn't even fetch half that much. Beef has gone wild. If that's not valuable, what do you consider valuable?

> $3,000 right now I’m not sure we’re talking about the same data. Here’s the price evolution of lived calves in EU. They happen to be very high since 2025 (300€/500€ for diary/meat) but if you click « select all » on the top left you can see they use to be around 100€/200€ in the previous 10 years, going as low as 60€/head during covid. https://agridata.ec.europa.eu/extensions/DashboardBeef/LiveA... > what do you co…

> in the previous 10 years [...] [1] [2]

For the sake of understanding our communication breakdown, what suggests "in this day of age of high-priced beef" is talking about 5-10 years ago?

Re: Where does all the milk go?

#70

Post by aziaziazi »

9rx wrote: post #69
aziaziazi wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> $3,000 right now I’m not sure we’re talking about the same data. Here’s the price evolution of lived calves in EU. They happen to be very high since 2025 (300€/500€ for diary/meat) but if you click « select all » on the top left you can see they use to be around 100€/200€ in the previous 10 years, going as low as 60€/head during covid. https://agridata.ec.europa.eu/extensions/DashboardBeef/LiveA... > what do you co…

> in the previous 10 years [...] [1] [2] For the sake of understanding our communication breakdown, what suggests "in this day of age of high-priced beef" is talking about 5-10 years ago?

To have a better understanding, one could suggest to search for the strongest plausible interpretation of what someone says, not a weaker one that's easier to criticize
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