This actually shows pretty good coverage for this feature, it seems to me. The big American isps do it, the mobile ones do too... How many major isps would we want to implement it to be "safe" and what would that look like? Is this a regional thing? They've only listed 4 unsafe ones on the site and that doesn't seem like a major issue, but maybe they're very large somewhere.
Click show all. Major ISPs like British Telecom (core UK telephony), NTT Docomo (Japan), Vodafone Espana (showing that Vodafone isn't doing it globally), Starlink (showing it's not a old tech problem), Rogers (US ISP) are listed unsafe. I think the 31 is a misleadingly positive picture.
Is BGP safe yet?
61–70 of 98 posts
Re: Is BGP safe yet?
#62Earlier quoted context omitted.
I get the same result for A&A, but frankly I trust them more than some random site with (apparently) an axe to grind.
https://www.aa.net.uk/etc/news/bgp-and-rpki/
Re: Is BGP safe yet?
#63Earlier quoted context omitted.
SCION is generally considered snake oil within the network operator community. Its weird single vendor for profit company that ships it's software, the fact that no router hw asic fwding supports what they want to do and then the general scummy inclusion of block chain / crypto as well as some "green washing" for PR hype. Sure the swiss have their toy but no one is taking it seriously.
Hmm, I'd disagree. The fact that Anapaya Systems (the for profit company mentioned) has the only commercial implementation/adjacent software is a problem, yes. But "snake oil" doesn't quite match up with the fact that SCION right now provides the backbone for the Swiss financial network moving 200 billion CHF each day [1], so at least some level of workable technology has to be there. And for no one to be taking it s…
This is a meaningless benchmark - for a small group of trusted big enterprises with insurance policies and mutually signed contracts you could've just as well used OSPF with zero filters.
The benchmark would be adoption by an actual large number of parties that don't/can't talk to eachother spread across the world. With a large chunk of them being malicious or incompetent to the point of being effectively malicious.
Re: Is BGP safe yet?
#64Earlier quoted context omitted.
Well if they can deceive certificate authorities that implement the ACME protocol like LetsEncrypt, then they could get a certificate for your site with the HTTP-01 challenge, see the paper Using BGP to Acquire Bogus TLS Certificates (2017) [1]. That paper suggested a mitigation they call Multiple Vantage Point Verification , which has already been implemented [2]. [1]: https://petsymposium.org/2017/papers/hotpets/bg…
They don't need ACME to do that, ACME is just an automation standard - the same rules apply for getting a certificate via ACME such as 3.2.2.4.19 "Agreed upon change to website - ACME" as for the manual process 3.2.2.4.18 "Agreed upon change to website v2". The ACME version is just designed for machines to automate easily (and as a result wildly more common in use today) And Multi-perspective only helps against an at…
Yes this is why multi-perspective is described as a "mitigation" above. Ideally, ACME issuers have a large array of perspectives with additional perspectives added frequently to foil planned attacks. But real BGP security is the actual solution to this problem.
Re: Is BGP safe yet?
#65This actually shows pretty good coverage for this feature, it seems to me. The big American isps do it, the mobile ones do too... How many major isps would we want to implement it to be "safe" and what would that look like? Is this a regional thing? They've only listed 4 unsafe ones on the site and that doesn't seem like a major issue, but maybe they're very large somewhere.
It would be "enough" if all the major transit ISPs did it and it would be helpful if all the major residential ISPs did it. If non-RPKI routes can't propagate through transit ISPs, that makes it a much less useful thing to do.
Re: Is BGP safe yet?
#66Earlier quoted context omitted.
They don't need ACME to do that, ACME is just an automation standard - the same rules apply for getting a certificate via ACME such as 3.2.2.4.19 "Agreed upon change to website - ACME" as for the manual process 3.2.2.4.18 "Agreed upon change to website v2". The ACME version is just designed for machines to automate easily (and as a result wildly more common in use today) And Multi-perspective only helps against an at…
So there is a more general standard which the ACME protocol automates. Or perhaps another way to put it is that, the standard is written in a way that "just happens" to be nicely automatable. Yes this is why multi-perspective is described as a "mitigation" above. Ideally, ACME issuers have a large array of perspectives with additional perspectives added frequently to foil planned attacks. But real BGP security is the…
This document is essentially an agreement between the Trust Stores (largely the browser vendors such as Microsoft, Google, Apple, and Mozilla) on behalf of their Relying Parties (everybody) and the Certificate Authorities they choose to trust. It lays out the requirements on what the CAs may do and how they may do it, the numbers I quoted were sub-section numbers for what are sometimes called the "Blessed Methods" which these days are listed in those requirements - for how a CA shall check that say a certificate for news.ycombinator.com can be issued to this web server we're both using.
This isn't a "standard" really, any more than you'd say the Geneva Conventions were standards. It specifies (that "- ACME" is from the document, it's not my addition) that you can use some ACME protocol features to achieve the name confirming requirement but it also specifies some ways to do so manually. Last month quite a few of the older methods were finally stopped for new issuance (though existing confirmations for those methods will keep working for a few years if you have them). Stuff like "Find the landline phone number for the company in a government directory and call them" which I'm not sure really still made sense when the BRs were first agreed, let alone last month when it was finally removed.
Re: Is BGP safe yet?
#67Earlier quoted context omitted.
200billion CHF....how big is that in bandwidth?
2.6 million transactions per day [0], which in ISO 20022 XML format messages works out to (rough guess) 20GB per day for an average of 1.8Mbps... [0]: https://www.scion.org/ssfn-scion/
Re: Is BGP safe yet?
#68Earlier quoted context omitted.
SCION is generally considered snake oil within the network operator community. Its weird single vendor for profit company that ships it's software, the fact that no router hw asic fwding supports what they want to do and then the general scummy inclusion of block chain / crypto as well as some "green washing" for PR hype. Sure the swiss have their toy but no one is taking it seriously.
Hmm, I'd disagree. The fact that Anapaya Systems (the for profit company mentioned) has the only commercial implementation/adjacent software is a problem, yes. But "snake oil" doesn't quite match up with the fact that SCION right now provides the backbone for the Swiss financial network moving 200 billion CHF each day [1], so at least some level of workable technology has to be there. And for no one to be taking it s…
Re: Is BGP safe yet?
#69Earlier quoted context omitted.
I got a fail on T-Mobile USA. It seems in the full list that T-Mobile is listed as both passing and failing.
T-Mobile consists of at least five distinct networks depending on when your carrier was purchased, last time I was talking with some of the network security guys in Factoria. It’s been four years - they may have converged some of them.
Re: Is BGP safe yet?
#70RPKI doesn't make BGP safe, it makes it safer . BGP hijacks can still happen. RPKI only secures the ownership information of a given prefix, not the path to that prefix. Under RPKI, an attacker can still claim to be on the path to a victim AS, and get the victim's traffic sent to it. The solution to this was supposed to be BGPSec, but it's widely seen as un-deployable.