Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Audio tapes reveal mass rule-breaking in Milgram's obedience experiments

psypost.org

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

61–70 of 142 posts

Re: Audio tapes reveal mass rule-breaking in Milgram's obedience experiments

#61

Post by noobermin »

crazygringo wrote: post #47
Miraltar wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, if you're supposed to administrate shocks to teach or test someone's memory, asking the question while they're screaming isn't just about protocol, it does break down the purpose of these shocks. Saying that participants did administrate shocks because they trusted the legitimacy of what they thought they were doing doesn't hold up under these circumstances.

No, because you'd have to show that the participants thought there was a breakdown of the procedure and purpose, and that they continued despite that. If they think the procedure is to read the next question when the previous one has been completed, and they do, even if the other person is screaming, they think they're "following rules". They're not the ones who came up with the procedure. Which is the whole point: t…

If I'm not mistaken, they were told the point of the experiment was supposed to be about "memory and learning". If a teacher was doing a "commission" as they put it, they aren't really following the purpose of the experiment any longer.

Re: Audio tapes reveal mass rule-breaking in Milgram's obedience experiments

#62

Post by Mordisquitos »

d1sxeyes wrote: post #31
Mordisquitos wrote: post #3

Interesting. If we can assume the experimenter's failure to enforce the rules was mere clumsiness or incompetence, rather than an indicator of underlying intentional manipulation of the experimental conditions à la Stanford prison experiment, this can be interpreted in many different ways. The (eventually) disobedient subjects were better at respecting the experimental process they were given than the "obedient" ones…

The Milgram experiment also couldn't be repeated today as it was completely unethical. It caused huge psychological distress to participants to the point that some participants had seizures.

Maybe we can do a meta-Milgram. A group of junior researchers are tasked with implementing what they believe to be a Milgram experiment, and while performing it the subjects (actually actors) start faking psychological distress in response to having to shock the completely fake learner subjects.

One of the researchers feels guilty from the apparent panic attack his subject appears to be going through, so he excuses himself from the experimental room and approaches the lead investigator who's watching on CCTV from outside:

“Professor, this subject is really suffering from their belief that they are electrocuting the learner. I believe this is unethical, can we stop please?”

The professor replies:

“The experiment requires that you continue.”

Re: Audio tapes reveal mass rule-breaking in Milgram's obedience experiments

#63

Post by lavamantis »

goatlover wrote: post #45
crazygringo wrote: post #38

To be clear, this doesn't seem like it invalidates anything in the original experiment. The "rule-breaking" isn't referring to anything the researchers were doing. It's referring to what the participants were doing. It points out that the compliant subjects who delivered the shocks weren't always following the procedure they were given perfectly. Which is, of course, expected, since people in general don't follow ins…

It wasn't a properly controlled experiment to begin with, nor was it repeated. General conclusions should not be drawn from a single, flawed study. But it makes for good headlines and talking points.

And some people really WANT to believe it's true. They've built their entire worldview around it and the idea they've been duped would cause a massive narcissistic injury.

Re: Audio tapes reveal mass rule-breaking in Milgram's obedience experiments

#64

Post by lavamantis »

animalfarm wrote: post #60

This is well-documented in Humankind: A Hopeful History by Rutger Bregman. It's worth a read, as it also dispels other experiments in human behaviour that have subsequently been difficult to replicate (for a variety of reasons). https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/52879286-humankind

Yep, great book. Also dispels the Lord of the Lies myth that people have taken as gospel.

Re: Audio tapes reveal mass rule-breaking in Milgram's obedience experiments

#65

Post by watwut »

resoluteteeth wrote: post #58
phendrenad2 wrote: post #51

Milgram gets thrown around as proof that everyone is just a few steps away from being an agent of evil. Finding out that it actually shows that there are psychopaths among us, and most people actually refused (left the experiment), somehow "clicks" and fits with reality a lot better. We see this in historical genocides - not everyone is in on it, and in fact it has to be covered-up internally because only the psychop…

I think you are incorrectly guessing the content of the article based on the title. The article doesn't say that more people refused than was previously known. It just concludes that most people weren't following instructions in a way that would have supported the validity of the supposed memory experiment.

It says more then that. The "psychopats" were NOT following the rules. The rule followers were not cruel.

The act of torturing was not due to the torturer obeying the rules. Instead, torturers broke the rules and created conditions that allowed them more torture.

Re: Audio tapes reveal mass rule-breaking in Milgram's obedience experiments

#66

Post by watwut »

d-us-vb wrote: post #32
Sharlin wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd think the conclusion you should draw is not that "even the famous experiments were not valid, so nothing in psychology is" but rather "the validity of an experiment does not correlate with how famous it is".

A direct conclusion. The insight I'll draw from that is that academia gives voice to the results the current zeitgeist finds interesting and believable without properly verifying the evidence. See also the replication crisis.

Famous experiments are not chosen by academia. They are chosen by non academics. What you usually find is academics being much more reserved and more critical of these then journalists, bloggers or random commenters on HN.

Re: Audio tapes reveal mass rule-breaking in Milgram's obedience experiments

#67

Post by Mordisquitos »

resoluteteeth wrote: post #58
phendrenad2 wrote: post #51

Milgram gets thrown around as proof that everyone is just a few steps away from being an agent of evil. Finding out that it actually shows that there are psychopaths among us, and most people actually refused (left the experiment), somehow "clicks" and fits with reality a lot better. We see this in historical genocides - not everyone is in on it, and in fact it has to be covered-up internally because only the psychop…

I think you are incorrectly guessing the content of the article based on the title. The article doesn't say that more people refused than was previously known. It just concludes that most people weren't following instructions in a way that would have supported the validity of the supposed memory experiment.

Indeed. Just knowing that the subjects who followed through with the shocks were less likely to obey the rules could be interpreted in many ways, some invalidating the results of the experiment, some just suggesting a mechanistic explanation, and some making the results even more concerning.

* Did the subjects who went full voltage stop caring about the "learning" protocol because they realised it was all fake? Then the conclusions of Milgram's experiment are invalid.

* Did the subjects who went full voltage make more mistakes because they were more anxious and fearful of the experimenter? Then underlying fear might be a mechanism for blind obedience, and further research would be interesting.

* Did the subjects who went full voltage just enjoy electrocuting the dude so much that they stopped caring about asking the questions correctly? Then blind obedience is the least of our worries, widespread sadism is much more concerning.

Re: Audio tapes reveal mass rule-breaking in Milgram's obedience experiments

#68

Post by watwut »

user2722 wrote: post #29
Spooky23 wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Alot of the problem with these “disproven” things is over broad scope or abused in the popular media beyond comprehension. The delayed gratification thing in particular is correlation vs. causation. It was really more about trust. Forcing kids to delay gratification is meaningless or counterproductive.

Agree. But according to Gemini [for what's worth] the final 1990 Mashmallow's study [since first versions were cautious] did indeed jump to conclusions to point there was a causation to a better later life. The media might have amplified, but the wrong (or misleading) conclusion was already present in the _scientific_ paper.

The thing about experimental science is that you should not make much conclusions from one study or one paper. Those should wait till consensus is reached, till there are many independent studies confirming the same thing under various conditions.

Re: Audio tapes reveal mass rule-breaking in Milgram's obedience experiments

#69

Post by KSteffensen »

user2722 wrote: post #4
Mordisquitos wrote: post #3

Interesting. If we can assume the experimenter's failure to enforce the rules was mere clumsiness or incompetence, rather than an indicator of underlying intentional manipulation of the experimental conditions à la Stanford prison experiment, this can be interpreted in many different ways. The (eventually) disobedient subjects were better at respecting the experimental process they were given than the "obedient" ones…

It really calls into questions the conclusions drawn from the last 50 years. Here's the ones disproven I remember: * kids grow to be rich because they accept delayed gratification * alpha males are the leader of the pack and all other males are useless * people accept violence if there is a higher authority which justifies it with a reason How many people suffered or delivered suffering because of their beliefs in th…

Didn't the Dunedin study also find that childhood self-control and delayed gratification correlated with adult life outcomes?

https://dunedinstudy.otago.ac.nz/files/1571970023782.pdf

Re: Audio tapes reveal mass rule-breaking in Milgram's obedience experiments

#70

Post by fgd135 »

embedding-shape wrote: post #22
bluGill wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Psychology "knows" that people don't enter treatment until things are really bad, and then they get better - no matter what treatment is provided. Finding treatment that is better than others is the important part and they also know they are not very good at that.

> and then they get better - no matter what treatment is provided I don't know what experience of therapy you've had in the past, but this is typically not how it works. People get better when a treatment is applied that is suitable to them as a person and the context, not sure where you'd get the whole "people get better no matter what treatment is applied", haven't been true in my experience.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dodo_bird_verdict
Post reply on HN