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I hate: Programming Wayland applications
61–70 of 184 posts
Re: I hate: Programming Wayland applications
#62Probably best off using a UI library like Avalonia: https://avaloniaui.net/
It satisfies the requirement to "make easy things easy, make hard things doable" and it also gets you cross platform support.
Re: I hate: Programming Wayland applications
#63The constant loud bile spewing over Wayland and systemd just won't stop here, will it? It's getting a bit boring, especially since none really does more than complain.
Especially systemd. Declarative management of services is a bad thing? Some people just wanna complain
Yeah Wayland I get. It's still kind of janky even after almost 20 years. Complaining about Systemd makes no sense though. It works very reliably, switching to it caused no issues, and it has fixed a number of problems with the Linux desktop.
Some people just want to live in the 80s forever.
Re: I hate: Programming Wayland applications
#64The constant loud bile spewing over Wayland and systemd just won't stop here, will it? It's getting a bit boring, especially since none really does more than complain.
Especially systemd. Declarative management of services is a bad thing? Some people just wanna complain
There are ~three groups in the systemd debate.
People who grew up on sysvinit based service management and can't handle change (the partially straw man group you are complaining about).
People who only know about sysvinit based service management and systemd and formed their opinions of systemd based on "sysvinit == terrible confusing shell scripts; systemd == config files" (you - as a first impression).
And people who actually know the advantages, disadvantages, and functional details of sysvinit based service management, systemd, and the plethora of other attempts/approaches at solving these issues and can support their arguments in favour of or against systemd with actually reasoned arguments.
The first group is easy to ignore, and a minority. The third group produces the biggest chunk of well informed content on systemd. And the second group seems to think that anyone in the third group who is in favour of systemd, must be one of them, and anyone who is against systemd, must be in the first group (note also: the false dichotomy).
Rather than straw manning your opponents in this discussion while pretending this is a discussion of the pros and cons of "declarative service management", could you instead contribute something useful? Lacking that, maybe just stop trying to contribute?
By saying stuff like this, you aren't going to convert sysvinit users to anything and you aren't going to convince anyone who has genuine criticism of systemd of anything.
Re: I hate: Programming Wayland applications
#65Earlier quoted context omitted.
A security disaster? Howso?
Letting any GUI application capture all input and take full control of the desktop completely defeats the point of sandboxing and X11 does exactly that.
Yawn, X11 (and similar "unsecure" desktop environments) existed for half a century and the sky hasn't fallen. I'm tired of that "will somebody think of the children/grandparents" scare mongering.
Re: I hate: Programming Wayland applications
#66Seems like complaining about how difficult to use Win32 and COM are. And they are if you use them directly! You don't do that - you use libraries that others have sweated over, as you did with raylib.
Exactly my impression. And honestly, X11 isn't exactly beautiful like the author is implying. A lot of the same wayland complaints they are putting here apply to X11. The main difference is that wayland is apparently handling the event loop for you while X11 expects you to set that up yourself. Win32 has exactly the same setup of problems here as wayland does. Moreso because Win32 just gives you back opaque handles w…
A big complaint in TFA is that Win32 is much much easier to use than Wayland is:
>Getting any example application to work is so incredibly ridiculous, that every second I program on Wayland, I yarn for the times I did Win32 programming.
And that comes from the core of how Wayland is designed.
In Win32, the stable interface / ABI is the set of C functions provided by the operating system through DLLs. These are always dynamically loaded, so Microsoft is free to change the internal interface used for controlling windows at any time. Because of this, decades-old .exes still run fine on Windows 11.
In Wayland, the stable interface is the binary protocol to the compositor, in addition to the libwayland-client library plus extensions. Instead of that socket being an "implementation detail", it's now something that all programs that just want to make a window have to deal with. You also can't just use the socket and ignore the libwayland libraries, because mesa uses libwayland-client and you probably want hardware acceleration.
The other big issue is the core Wayland protocol is useless; you have to use a bunch of protocol extensions to do anything, and different compositors may implement different versions of them. On Win32, Microsoft can just add another C function to user32.dll and you don't have to think about protocol how that gets transformed into messages on the socket layer, or compatibility issues with different sets of extensions being supported by different compositors.
Re: I hate: Programming Wayland applications
#67Poor soul — they missed `wlroots` in their googling! You’re not supposed to be solving these issues yourself.
Poor sould -- they should have googled `wlroots` before their commenting.
Re: I hate: Programming Wayland applications
#68Earlier quoted context omitted.
Having done some mobile development where app sandboxes have been prevalent for years, it's annoying to deal with but necessary. Given the bad behavior some devs attempt, often ad SDKs trying to perma-cookie users, stealing clipboards, etc, having a platform that can support app isolation seems necessary for normal desktop usage.
How often has that been a problem for desktop OSes?
Constantly. Phishing, tech support scams, supply chain attacks on e.g. NPM, problems have been rampant since we connected desktops to the internet.
Re: I hate: Programming Wayland applications
#69I have no love lost for Wayland, but this:
> Make easy things easy. Make hard things doable.
is generally unachievable. Instead, pick one:
- easy things easy, hard things impossible
- easy things tedious, hard things possible
(Unless you want to maintain two sets of interfaces in parallel.)
Re: I hate: Programming Wayland applications
#70Earlier quoted context omitted.
I'm using Sway right now and I have key binds. Not sure why you think that's impossible.
Th point is the decoupling. sxkhd runs irrespective of wm and means your en can optionally choose not to handle key bindings at all. With Wayland you end up depending on whether or not and how your compositor supports it.
How many keybings do you have and how often do you try new window managers? Compromising the security of the whole system just to save you a few `sed`s when writing some config files seems like a bad trade off.