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Ryugu asteroid samples contain all DNA and RNA building blocks

phys.org

61–70 of 180 posts

Re: Ryugu asteroid samples contain all DNA and RNA building blocks

#61

One longstanding theory is that life first began on Earth when asteroids carrying fundamental elements crashed into our planet long ago. I'm no expert but this sounds strange. Surely those fundamental elements would also form in vast quantities on their own on an entire planet with volcanoes and oceans? Wouldn't a couple asteroids be the literal drop in the ocean in comparison? The missing part is how do they form se…

The major flaw in Panspermia is that it all had to start somewhere without Panspermia. If it did that there, why not here?

We know 2 things that are apparently incoherent:

1 - Abiogenesis is incredibly rare. We don't know how much exactly, but it's a lot.

2 - Abiogenesis happened on Earth about as soon as it became possible. Where "as soon as" means within half a billion years, but it's still way quicker than its rarity implies.

A lot of people think panspermia is what made those two happen. Life had about a full billion years to appear in meteors before they could appear here.

There are some problems, e.g. that each meteor only stayed chemically active for less than that half-a-billion years Earth had. Or that all the meteors that fell on Earth had only a fraction of the material that was later available here. But IMO, the largest issue is that just doubling the time is absolutely unsatisfying.

Re: Ryugu asteroid samples contain all DNA and RNA building blocks

#62

One longstanding theory is that life first began on Earth when asteroids carrying fundamental elements crashed into our planet long ago. I'm no expert but this sounds strange. Surely those fundamental elements would also form in vast quantities on their own on an entire planet with volcanoes and oceans? Wouldn't a couple asteroids be the literal drop in the ocean in comparison? The missing part is how do they form se…

There are 2 distinct kinds of claims made about the role of meteorites fallen on Earth whose origin is in such bodies like the Ryugu asteroid.

One claim, which is likely to be true, is that in the beginning the Earth had a lower content of volatile elements, e.g. hydrogen, nitrogen, carbon, oxygen and sulfur, than today. The reason is that Earth has condensed at a high temperature, being close to the Sun, and those elements would not have condensed.

Later, the Earth has been bombarded by a great number of asteroids formed far from the Sun, which were much richer in H, C, N, O and S, and this bombardment has provided a major part of the chemical elements required for water and for organic substances.

A second, different claim, which is almost certainly false, is that this bombardment of the Earth has provided not only the raw chemical elements, but also pre-synthesized organic substances, like amino-acids and nucleobases, which have taken part directly in the origin of life.

This second claim does not make sense. The meteorites rich in water and organic substances are extremely easily vaporized during atmospheric entry or during the impact with the surface and their content of organic substances would decompose.

Even if we suppose that some falling bodies were so big that parts of them survived until the surface, any organic substances thus brought on Earth could not help in any way the appearance of life.

Any form of life would need a continuous supply of such substances, otherwise immediately after consuming the few molecules adjacent to it the life form would die without descendants.

Life can appear only in a place where there is a continuous supply of energy and it can use only chemical substances that are continuously synthesized in abiotic conditions. It cannot appear based on sporadic events, like the fall of a meteorite, which would also destroy anything at its place of impact.

Such places where energy is available continuously and there are also the substances from which complex organic substances can be synthesized through catalysis by various minerals, mostly metallic sulfides, exist both on Earth and in other places in the Solar System. These are the places where either volcanic gases are released or similar gases are produced by the reaction of water with volcanic rocks, in hydrothermal vents. As far as we know, those are the places where life must have appeared, because all the necessary ingredients exist. The only mysterious part is how it has happened that a correct combination of the mineral catalysts required to synthesize all the needed organic molecules happened to be located in close proximity and in the right sequence.

Today, even if such places still exist on Earth, life could not appear again. First, the oxygen from air would destroy any substances thus formed, and even where oxygen is missing the ubiquitous bacteria would consume any organic substances that could form abiotically, preventing their accumulation and the formation of any kind of structure from them.

Re: Ryugu asteroid samples contain all DNA and RNA building blocks

#63

One longstanding theory is that life first began on Earth when asteroids carrying fundamental elements crashed into our planet long ago. I'm no expert but this sounds strange. Surely those fundamental elements would also form in vast quantities on their own on an entire planet with volcanoes and oceans? Wouldn't a couple asteroids be the literal drop in the ocean in comparison? The missing part is how do they form se…

The missing part has been conducted in other experiments. I don’t have time to give you some papers, but nucleic acids can self assemble into long chains under the right condutions. No polymerase enzyme is needed.

Re: Ryugu asteroid samples contain all DNA and RNA building blocks

#64
post #2

It contains nucleobases. But does it contain ribose, or ribose linked to the nucleobases, or to phosphates? And more generally, does it also contain a grab bag of related chemicals that are not building blocks? The existence of such blocks as minor constituents of a soup of random chemicals doesn't mean much, especially as the concentration of any such constituent declines exponentially with its complexity.

It's a sample of one, but I think the takeaway is just that if the nucleobases are present on a random asteroid then they probably commonly occur. Of course as you note it takes a lot more than that to form these into nucleic acids. I would guess there is a more primitive stage in the emergence of life where self-replicating soups (Kaufmann: metabolisms), including things like nucleobases and amino acids, capable of…

The nucleobases can self polymerize into nucleic acids

Re: Ryugu asteroid samples contain all DNA and RNA building blocks

#65
That's not really new. It seems as if some people try to project "there is life outside of planet Earth". Well, the thing is ... is this question important? You already have life here. Synthetic biology will also progress. So why is it important if life is anywhere else? I don't understand it.

There is nothing magic in RNA or DNA. Granted, right now we can not easily explain how life gets "bootstrapped", but recently there was a paper of self-propagating RNA even of a kind of semi-random sequence; this RNA can just amplify itself. I am sure you can find many more similar examples eventually as well as biochemical reaction processes that can be "bootstrapped" - and I am also sure none of these work on an asteroid. So why is there this strange focus on "life outside of planet Earth"? Some people want research money, that is clear now.

Re: Ryugu asteroid samples contain all DNA and RNA building blocks

#66

One longstanding theory is that life first began on Earth when asteroids carrying fundamental elements crashed into our planet long ago. I'm no expert but this sounds strange. Surely those fundamental elements would also form in vast quantities on their own on an entire planet with volcanoes and oceans? Wouldn't a couple asteroids be the literal drop in the ocean in comparison? The missing part is how do they form se…

Yep, you are 100% correct. In fact, it is much more likely they were originating on Earth itself than a random hobo asteroid.

> The missing part is how do they form self-replicating mechanisms capable of evolution.

Well, there are some missing parts, yes, but RNA can self-replicate already; at the least some RNA can. Ribosomes also contain RNA so its is a ribozyme.

Re: Ryugu asteroid samples contain all DNA and RNA building blocks

#67
Ummm ... the "Victoria University of Wellington in Australia"? Please. Victoria University is located in Wellington, New Zealand [1]. Nothing to do with Australia. Dr. Morgan Cable is a Senior Lecturer in Space Science at Te Herenga Waka, Victoria University of Wellington in New Zealand [2]. Can't believe that phys.org would publish such an error.

[1] https://www.wgtn.ac.nz/

[2] https://www.psi.edu/staff/profile/morgan-cable/

Re: Ryugu asteroid samples contain all DNA and RNA building blocks

#68
post #25

One longstanding theory is that life first began on Earth when asteroids carrying fundamental elements crashed into our planet long ago. I'm no expert but this sounds strange. Surely those fundamental elements would also form in vast quantities on their own on an entire planet with volcanoes and oceans? Wouldn't a couple asteroids be the literal drop in the ocean in comparison? The missing part is how do they form se…

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Late_Heavy_Bombardment - possibly?

There is some skepticism now that the LHB was real.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IZfzbEtKF9o

Re: Ryugu asteroid samples contain all DNA and RNA building blocks

#69
post #49
post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Huh? Those smaller rocks would be even more irradiated, as they have no atmosphere? They’d also have to contend with re-entry.

It would’ve been specifically asteroids from beyond the "frost line", where it’s cold enough for volatile substances to coalesce and stay solid.

"volatile substances" is doing a lot of work. This means water and organics. Literal cold-storage seeds of life.

Re: Ryugu asteroid samples contain all DNA and RNA building blocks

#70
post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I guess it depends on how you define life, and whether we'd even recognize it when we see it, assuming we're looking in the right places. I'd also imagine that any type of chemistry that harvests energy from the environment is liable to find itself as a food source at the bottom of the food chain now that earth is teeming with life. I think that self-replication, and ability to harvest chemicals and energy from the e…

read up on the RNA world theory, it's so cool

Parts of the RNA world theory are correct, but other parts are completely bogus and completely illogical.

What is correct is that RNA must have existed a very long time before DNA, during which RNA was the only nucleic acid.

Moreover, self-replicating RNA must have existed before ribosomes and proteins (where "protein" means a polypeptide that is synthesized using a RNA template).

It should be obvious that neither ribosomes nor protein-encoding RNA-sequences may exist before the existence of self-replicating RNA, because the living being in which those would exist would immediately die without descendants, together with its content of ribosomes and proteins.

So far so good, but some of the supporters of the RNA World theory claim that before the existence of protein-based enzymes, all chemical reactions inside a living being must have been catalyzed by RNA molecules.

This is an illogical claim, which is false beyond any reasonable doubt. Some RNA-based catalysts may have existed quite early, and some still exist today. However, any RNA-based catalyst could have appeared only at a later time after the establishment of RNA self-replication. The argument is the same as for protein-based catalysts, any living being with a RNA catalyst, but without RNA replication would die and the RNA catalyst would disappear without descendants.

So there is no doubt that the first feature of RNA that has appeared was self-replication, and at that time RNA could not have any other role inside a living being, because any such role would not have been inherited.

In other words, the first self-replicating RNA molecules were a kind of RNA virus, which multiplied inside the existing living beings, consuming energy and substances, without providing benefits. Only later, when eventually RNA templates have become the main method for synthesizing the useful components of a living being, something akin to a symbiosis between RNA and the rest of the living being was achieved, arriving to the structure of life that is known today.

For the first self-replicating RNA molecule to appear, the living beings must have contained abundant ATP and the other nucleotides. So the original role of the nucleobases in living beings was not the storage of information, but the storage of the energy required for synthesizing organic polymers. The self-polimerization of the nucleotides, which forms RNA, was an unwanted side reaction. In other words, before the RNA world, there already was an ATP world, which was the first user of nucleobases.

If RNA could not have been the material for making enzymes before the proteins, such enzymes must have been made from peptides (i.e. polymers of amino-acids), exactly like the enzymes of today, but those peptides must have not been synthesized using ribosomes, like the proteins. Such peptides still exist today and they remain widespread in all living beings, and they are named non-ribosomal peptides. Their mechanisms of synthesis are much less understood than the mechanisms of RNA-based protein synthesis. It is likely that more research into non-ribosomal peptides might provide a better understanding of how a living being without RNA could function.

In order to have a self-replicating living being you do not need a self-replicating molecule able to store arbitrary information, like RNA. It is enough to have a chain of synthesis reactions that closes a positive-feedback cycle, i.e. the products of one reaction are reactants for the next reaction and the products of the last reaction are the reactants for the first. If the chain of reactions produces all the components of a living being, growth and self-replication can be achieved.

The defect of such a living being is that evolution is extremely difficult. any mutation in one of the catalysts used in the chain of reactions is more likely to break the positive feedback and lead to death, instead of producing an improved living being. After the appearance of memory molecules, i.e. RNA and later DNA, which can store the recipe for making an arbitrary polymer molecule, it became possible to explore by mutations a much greater space of solutions, leading to a greatly accelerated evolution of the living beings.

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