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Changes to OpenTTD Distribution on Steam

openttd.org

61–70 of 136 posts

Re: Changes to OpenTTD Distribution on Steam

#61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They legally own the assets. Taking them off Steam if the title is no longer abandoned by the publisher is a 100% reasonable decision, so you need to understand this is above and beyond what the publisher needs to do. An outcome like this more than likely means the folks working on the rerelease are fans of OpenTTD and worked internally to protect it.

Are you sure the stream version has proprietary assets? I was under impression that they had some open assets, but I may be wrong.

The issue isn't the game assets. The division between assets and code is something id invented so they could open up their old game engines while still being able to sell[0] copies of the original DOOM. But that boundary is entirely a choice of the developer, and a consequence of separability of copyright - if you make something, you can break up the rights and hand them out in different ways. Legally speaking, the only thing that matters is if any part of OpenTTD is the same as any part of Transport Tycoon.

This part gets a little confusing in software, because we have a proud history of both cultural norms and actual caselaw allowing unauthorized reimplementation of other people's copyright-bearing APIs. Applying copyright to software basically created a mutant form of patent law that lasts forever, so the courts had to spend decades paring it back by defining boundaries between the two. Reimplementation precedent is part of that boundary.

But all of that precedent relies upon software compatibility - the argument being that if you lawfully use someone else's software library to write software, you are not surrendering ownership over your own program to your library vendor, and someone else with a compatible replacement is not infringing the original library.

Legal arguments relying on reimplementation work well when the APIs in question are minimally creative and there is a large amount of third-party software that used them. The closest example would be something like Ruffle, which reimplements a Flash Player runtime that was used for a countless number of games. OpenTTD exists to reimplement precisely one game, specifically to enable a bunch of unauthorized derivative works that would be facially illegal if they had been applied directly to the TTD source code. This wouldn't fly in court.

In court, OpenTTD would be judged based on substantial similarity between its code and Transport Tycoon's code. While copyright does not apply to game rules, and cloning a game is legal[1], I am not aware of any effort in OpenTTD to ensure their implementation of those rules is creatively distinct from Transport Tycoon's. In fact, OpenTTD was forked from a disassembly of the latter, which is highly likely[2] to produce substantial similarity.

tl;dr I'm genuinely surprised Atari didn't sue them off Steam!

[0] Translation for pedants: "have a monopoly on selling". In the creative biz, two people generally don't make money selling the same thing.

[1] Trade dress and trademark lawsuits notwithstanding - The Tetris Company has done an awful lot of litigation on that front.

[2] The standard way to avoid this is clean-room reverse engineering. It's not a legal requirement, of course, but it helps a lot.

Re: Changes to OpenTTD Distribution on Steam

#62
post #6

Obviously having OpenTTD available for free on Steam would jeopardize Atari's paid rerelease of Transport Tycoon Deluxe, so I think this is a good compromise. Hopefully they rigged it up so the assets from Transport Tycoon Deluxe get picked up automatically by OpenTTD when you install the bundle. I also hope that Atari will be sharing some of the revenue from the bundle with the OpenTTD team as part of this arrangeme…

It doesn't seem like a compromise. It seems like bullying

Re: Changes to OpenTTD Distribution on Steam

#63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As someone who has been involved in OpenRCT2, which is another Chris Sawyer/Atari game, from what I can tell, Atari has a very hands off approach to these things. We know they know about us - We saw their Head of PR giving away keys for RCT2 on Twitch while playing OpenRCT2, prior to the release of RCT World (What a terrible game sadly). As far as we can tell, it's basically a "don't cause us problems and we won't bo…

I think most people who still buy RTC only do so to get the assets for OpenRTC2. Atari is in a really weird spot, the rights have changed hands so much. It would be nice if they offered a paid version of OpenRTC with the assets bundled. Ohh well

You can just legally get the ones from the demo file in ZIP format.

Re: Changes to OpenTTD Distribution on Steam

#64

Honestly fair and understandable. OpenTTD builds on TTD (it's right there in the name.) You aren't forced to play OpenTTD and you aren't forced to get it on Steam/GoG. It's acceptable.

OpenTTD now has a totally free asset pack covering everything, it doesn't need the original TTD at all.

Re: Changes to OpenTTD Distribution on Steam

#65

Honestly fair and understandable. OpenTTD builds on TTD (it's right there in the name.) You aren't forced to play OpenTTD and you aren't forced to get it on Steam/GoG. It's acceptable.

"builds on" in concept and by using the same three letters. Not builds on in a legal sense

Re: Changes to OpenTTD Distribution on Steam

#67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Given the “rightsholders” have no rights over OpenTTD (only the assets are copyrightable, and OpenTTD has had its own set of open-source assets for the past 15 years), I can’t agree with this. I’m not sure how to interpret this other than Atari not wanting to compete with OpenTTD on Steam.

It's more complicated than that. For an asset to be derived work from an original, it is not necessary for it to contain anything from the original. If you start from copyrighted assets, and meticulously replace them all with your own art piece by piece, while following the style and constraints of the originals, and while looking at the originals, I'd bet that a court would find your work to be derived from the orig…

FreeDoom does that with Doom and it has compatible assets but not in the same style altough they are done in such smart way that most PWADs and TC are totally playable without clashes, from Requiem to Back To Saturn.

On game engines, reimplementations are not derivations at all but tools for interoperability, totally legal to create. From Wine to most of the stuff of https://osgameclones.com, to GNUStep against NeXT/OpenStep API (and Cocoa from early OSX) and so on.

If you could sell Cedega back in the day you can totally sell OpenTTD with free assets, period.

The entire PC industry exists today because of cheap IBM BIOS clones from Taiwan.

Re: Changes to OpenTTD Distribution on Steam

#68
post #22

This seems quite positive to me: Clearly the rightsholders are not being total jerks since they're happy to allow an OpenTTD bundle, and the original game is available with modern fixes as well.

I kind of doubt that. Chris Sawyer is on record being really hostile to open source reimaginations, especially OpenTTD (and it's just a reimagination at this point as OpenTTD shares no assets or code with it's predecessor). It wouldn't remotely surprise me if Atari was putting legal pressure on the OpenTTD devs.

I don't think they'd have any case for legitimate legal pressure but clearly some kind of underhanded bullying. Hopefully no one buys this

Re: Changes to OpenTTD Distribution on Steam

#69
post #14
post #4

I like Simutrans more because the cargo and passengers have destinations in mind. TTD and OpenTTD do not which incentivizes mechanisms to dump everyone at the edge of the map. Aside from that they're both transport games with bad UIs.

Why the simutrans folks decided on a weird hardcoded frame rate (40fps) that looks janky as hell on every single display ever I will never understand. Unplayable. instant motion sickness.

It sounds to me like a product of the ‘90s. CRTs were still common, and they support essentially arbitrary fixed refresh rates. It wouldn’t have been a big deal at the time. It’s like how the original Doom runs at a native 35fps when you don’t use interpolation.

Re: Changes to OpenTTD Distribution on Steam

#70
post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Who knows, though I always thought that it was rather odd that OpenTTD was on Steam. I'm not sure whether that's because it is an open source remake or because you had to own the original for the graphics/sound assets back in the day. (Apparently that changed over 15 years ago!) Even if Atari's lawyers were involved, it may have been a friendly exchange. The post claims that OpenTTD was available on Steam for 5 years…

As someone who has been involved in OpenRCT2, which is another Chris Sawyer/Atari game, from what I can tell, Atari has a very hands off approach to these things. We know they know about us - We saw their Head of PR giving away keys for RCT2 on Twitch while playing OpenRCT2, prior to the release of RCT World (What a terrible game sadly). As far as we can tell, it's basically a "don't cause us problems and we won't bo…

> As far as we can tell, it's basically a "don't cause us problems and we won't bother you" situation.

In this case, the "problem" seems to be "we want to lazily cash in on an existing IP and you providing a better product for free on the same shelves as ours makes that difficult", with the "solution" being to agree to have the better (free) version bundled with the lesser (paid) version.

I suppose it's better than banning distribution of prebuilt executables outside Steam or suing the devs into bankruptcy (a lawsuit Atari would likely win), but at that point we're just comparing starting with a shakedown to starting with breaking kneecaps.

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