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Games with loot boxes to get minimum 16 age rating across Europe

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Re: Games with loot boxes to get minimum 16 age rating across Europe

#61

Post by Agentlien »

shevy-java wrote: post #57
Agentlien wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How does an age recommendation take away liberties? I have kids and as a parent I use these ratings as a very loose guide combined with my own experience and understanding of the game in question. Other parents ignore them completely. I agree more could be done to directly affect the companies, and there have been a lot of legal cases surrounding loot boxes aimed at children. But this is a good complement to that. It…

> How does an age recommendation take away liberties? For instance, by being used in further legislation to mandate age verification on all operating systems. Lo and behold, that is already happening - see California. One can not view a single law and assume it is isolated, when in reality this is a move by lobbyists to further restrict people and sniff after them (see MidnightBSD giving in and adding a daemon that s…

I'm skeptical because this is not a new system part of those lobbyist agendas. This is a recommendation system which has been in effect for over 20 years. And this is a tweak to how they update recommendations.

Re: Games with loot boxes to get minimum 16 age rating across Europe

#62

Post by riffraff »

TheAceOfHearts wrote: post #18
nba456_ wrote: post #2

I never understood why video game lootboxes get regulated while real-life lootboxes like pokemon cards don't.

Pokemon cards have gone full circle, GameStop now has an online service where you can gamble on cards digitally just like lootboxes. You buy a roll at different price points to win a PSA graded card from a set of probabilities, and then you can sell it back for 90% market value to GameStop or have them ship it to you. The proliferation of gambling over so many domains has radicalized me against it in a way that I did…

> The proliferation of gambling over so many domains has radicalized me against it in a way that I didn't think would've been possible a few years ago.

I grew up in Italy when sport betting was illegal and you had to do it through illegal channels, and I did it now and then like everyone else, and thought we should totally make it legal.

At some point all betting, slot machines etc.. became legal and it's been a disaster and I'm also totally radicalized against it.

Re: Games with loot boxes to get minimum 16 age rating across Europe

#63

Post by themafia »

seattle_spring wrote: post #49
themafia wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The single layer of abstraction. Pokemon cards have utility within the game of pokemon. They additionally have value in secondary market places which is not strictly tied to the rarity of the item. These markets are not required to exist for the game to function. Lootboxes, especially for competitive games, do not have any utility within the game and are often cosmetic. Their value is strictly tied to the rarity of t…

Rarity of Pokemon cards is also fully controlled by the vendor, and it's of course very intentional.

Pokemon cards can get destroyed or may never enter the market for all the typical reasons or may not be particularly valuable even though they are rare. They don't have nearly as direct a control over the price.

Re: Games with loot boxes to get minimum 16 age rating across Europe

#64

Post by kelnos »

shevy-java wrote: post #52
benoau wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because in real life the store clerk won't let a child spend $1000 on their parents card making purchases again and again and again and again and again, but a video game will let a child do it in less than an hour and consider that a success and try to understand how to stimulate another child to do so.

But that is still a strange argument, because IF the argument is that loot boxes are so dangerous and addictive, why can, say, a 19 years old do it but a 18 years old can not? That makes no logical sense. One year is a magical difference suddenly?

This is a bit of a silly argument, given all the precedent in real life for this sort of thing.

Can a 16 year old magically drive a car properly, but a 15 year old can't? Is an 18 year old magically much more capable doing their electoral civic duty than a 17 year old? Is a 21 year old magically able to consume alcohol responsibly, but a 20 year old isn't?

(Or whatever age cutoffs are appropriate for your jurisdiction.)

We define these cutoffs not because they are magical or apply equally to everyone, but because we have to draw the line somewhere, in cases where we aren't going to do a blanket all-ages ban. Sometimes the cutoff is chosen poorly, certainly, but that's a problem with the implementation, not the idea itself.

Re: Games with loot boxes to get minimum 16 age rating across Europe

#65

Post by kelnos »

otikik wrote: post #44

I think this is good, but also it will change things very little (parents will skip the age verification screen).

Which, frankly, is fine. Regulations like this are great to help guide parents, but ultimately it is the parent's responsibility to decide what is fine and not fine for their child. I wouldn't agree with a parent that gets their kid into loot boxes, but that's their choice.

And if a parent is blindly skipping an age verification screen for their kid without figuring out why that age verification is there in the first place, then they're a bad parent. You can't really fix that, unfortunately, outside of extreme cases.

Re: Games with loot boxes to get minimum 16 age rating across Europe

#66

Post by kelnos »

erxam wrote: post #13

Okay? How will this actually change anything? I don't think I have ever paid attention to a single age rating in my entire life. Does anyone do outside of fundamentalist parents who wouldn't let kids play most video games anyways? Very spiritually European move. What regulators should do is focus on easily applicable percentage-based fines. Make sure it's not just another line item.

> I don't think I have ever paid attention to a single age rating in my entire life.

You mean when you've selected games for yourself to play? That's... fine.

If you mean when you've selected (or allowed) games for your kids to play, that's... pretty irresponsible.

Re: Games with loot boxes to get minimum 16 age rating across Europe

#67

Post by kelnos »

Razengan wrote: post #48

Yet again more moves which take away the liberty of all citizens and users instead of restricting predatory companies and products.. How much access to money parents want to give their kids is up to the parents. What people do with their own money, including kids, is up to the people. WHY are countries not enacting laws that punish companies for once? Say something like: • "After 3-5 purchases of the same item with r…

Adjusting an age-ratings system doesn't take liberty away from anyone. Parents can still allow their kids to play whatever games the parent deems is ok.

I agree with some of your other points, though: we should have legally mandated return periods for this sort of thing. Not sure how you'd enshrine price limits into law, though; that seems impractical.

Re: Games with loot boxes to get minimum 16 age rating across Europe

#68

Post by kulahan »

tjpnz wrote: post #26
pdpi wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you're forbidding people from doing things they could do yesterday, it's best to be a little conservative with your scope. 16-yo kids might do some amount of part time work, and should at least have enough of a concept of money to understand why pressing the "more loot boxes" button is a Bad Idea. They're also old enough that they might potentially have their own bank account and their own card, which then caps th…

So what's the issue then? The minimum is 16 - or are you proposing kids 15 and younger have the right to gamble?

It’s not like if it fails, you’re forbidden from trying again, yeah? Or am I incorrect on this? Not European.

Re: Games with loot boxes to get minimum 16 age rating across Europe

#69

Post by rvnx »

riffraff wrote: post #62
TheAceOfHearts wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pokemon cards have gone full circle, GameStop now has an online service where you can gamble on cards digitally just like lootboxes. You buy a roll at different price points to win a PSA graded card from a set of probabilities, and then you can sell it back for 90% market value to GameStop or have them ship it to you. The proliferation of gambling over so many domains has radicalized me against it in a way that I did…

> The proliferation of gambling over so many domains has radicalized me against it in a way that I didn't think would've been possible a few years ago. I grew up in Italy when sport betting was illegal and you had to do it through illegal channels, and I did it now and then like everyone else, and thought we should totally make it legal. At some point all betting, slot machines etc.. became legal and it's been a disa…

The best solution is through education. For example by showing in big letters the return-to-player ratio:

On 100 EUR you will get → 79 back, if you put them again in the machine you will get → 62.41 → 49.30 → 38.95 → 30.77…

Re: Games with loot boxes to get minimum 16 age rating across Europe

#70

Post by nurettin »

hiccuphippo wrote: post #46
nurettin wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Differ all you want. No child will bankrupt a family at a trading card game store. These are physical goods paid in bulk with provisioning and there are laws for returning them. Another point of contention is the randomness of packs. The way you play is: You save up to buy the entire set of boosters and already get almost all cards you need for competitive or fun play. The rest you need to trade for or buy individual…

Allowing trading is a big part of it. Most online games never allow trading the things bought with real money, they get tied to your account. I guess as a way to prevent CC fraud but it still contributes to the issue.

Trading wouldn't work due to online game deflation. They have to set you up in order to retain you. When you open a new account, or are a "returning player" you get a bunch of free/easy to get stuff that took someone else a decade to collect.
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