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Iranians describe scenes of catastrophe after Tehran's oil depots bombed

theguardian.com

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Re: Iranians describe scenes of catastrophe after Tehran's oil depots bombed

#61

Post by applfanboysbgon »

keiferski wrote: post #46
Neil44 wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pretty big assumption you're making, that you know what people voted for.

I’d be glad to see evidence that people voted for interventions in the Middle East, if you have any. My impression is that a key part of Trump’s campaign was ending excessive foreign wars. There are lots of clips going around with him saying this.

Trump's approval rating among his base is still overwhelmingly high. They know what they were voting for, and they still support him. They know that Trump lies like he breathes, and they are perfectly fine with that. Trump supporters themselves are largely liars. They do not openly state the positions they actually hold. That Trump says X and does Y is fine because his supporters say X and believe Y. Words are a game to them, a means to accomplish a goal rather than something to communicate honestly with.

The most important thing to understand about Trump and conservatism in general, by far, is that there is one central principle that underpines the entire ideology: hierarchy. Going back to the time of kings and nobility and clergy, through to the present day.

"Conservatism consists of exactly one proposition, to wit: There must be in-groups whom the law protects but does not bind, alongside out-groups whom the law binds but does not protect."

One set of laws for the people higher in the hierarchy, and one set of laws for the people lower in the hierarchy. Things that are okay for them to do are not okay for you to do. Wars started by Democrats are bad. Wars started by Republicans are good. They know this is not convincing rhetoric to anyone who is not part of the in-group, so they lie about their reasons and play games with words. This, however, is what they truly believe.

It is why every action they take appears hypocritical to their opponents, but in actuality, it is perfectly consistent with their values - it is good when they do it, because everything is good when they do it, and it is bad when somebody else does it, because everything is bad when somebody else does it. It is why "the only moral abortion is my abortion". It is why the exact same policies executed by different presidents will have the same approval rating by democrats, but a completely inverse approval rating by republicans (eg 40% of Democrats approve of either Obama or Trump striking Syria, while 20% of Republicans approve if Obama does it and 80% approve if Trump does it). It is the single consistent trend through all of their policies. They know exactly what they were voting for, and that is for the man who represents their hierarchy. The games he plays with words are part of the platform.

Edit: I have rewrote the message quite a bit, apologies if anything doesn't make sense.

Re: Iranians describe scenes of catastrophe after Tehran's oil depots bombed

#62

Post by throwaway132448 »

Why are threads on this topic (and its adjacents) always full of Americans blaming Israel for their own country’s actions? Is it a coping mechanism to not accept any moral accountability? Israel is minuscule in every way compared to the US.

Re: Iranians describe scenes of catastrophe after Tehran's oil depots bombed

#63

Post by kakacik »

stef25 wrote: post #54
spankalee wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The US needs a parliamentary system. Trump would have been dumped already. Instead we have to wait 3 more years to end this insanity.

> Instead we have to wait 3 more years to end this insanity. Pray that you'll see the end of it in 3 years. It would be surprise if that ship can be turned around.

My gut feeling is that next person after him (if he actually gives up office which is in land of wishful thinking at this point) may be worse, and even visibly worse and US folks will still vote for him/her.

I sure hope my gut is wildly incorrect this time, for me, you, and mankind overall.

Re: Iranians describe scenes of catastrophe after Tehran's oil depots bombed

#64

Post by lwansbrough »

watwut wrote: post #43
lwansbrough wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tell me: is the US supposed to stand idly by while the Iranian regime develops nuclear weapons? They pursue nuclear weapons of their own volition, by the way. There are paranuclear states and nuclear threshold states which have not pursued nuclear weapons and have delivered on providing for their people in every manner in which a human society needs. So what does Iran hope to achieve that diplomacy cannot? At what po…

There was a deal, Trump cancelled. There were negotiations where the Iranian regime actually made big concessions. But, Trump administration was not interested in concessions and started a war with no real reason. > At what point does it turn from a "disagreement" to a credible existential threat that an adversary cannot ignore? It was not nearly this point. This was a point where USA, Israel and Saudi perceived Iran…

Iran has zero leverage. Any leverage given is an olive branch. Obama era diplomacy was the right path, Trump is a moron. But the bigger issue here is Iran's free-will pursuit of nuclear weapons. It is a choice they're making. They choose to pursue nuclear weapons, forcing the US to either take a diplomatic path to stop them, or intervene.

They don't have to build nuclear weapons! They're just doing that shit.

Re: Iranians describe scenes of catastrophe after Tehran's oil depots bombed

#65

Post by lukan »

kdheiwns wrote: post #58
keiferski wrote: post #27

This whole situation made me realize that the mechanism for holding presidents accountable for campaign promises really doesn’t exist. None of this is what people voted for, and is almost directly the opposite. That isn’t a new thing, of course, but this seems like a pretty huge turnaround from what the campaign was about. This seems like a fundamental problem with the system to me. If you can’t count on the candidat…

A lot of people voted on a platform of pissing off a lot of people. A lot of people are pissed. Polls on the day of the invasion indicated a lack of support; since then a lot of people have shown that they're pissed, and now that voter base is supporting the admin and these actions because they see people getting pissed. It sounds petty and dumb. Unfortunately, that's what's happening. 44% support the invasion. [1] T…

The source seems bad, for some reasons they added the 10% of "unsure" to "supports".

"the new survey found 56% of Americans oppose U.S. military action in Iran, while 44% support it."

But later:

"A majority -- 54% -- of Americans disapprove of how Trump is handling Iran. Another 36% approve and 10% are unsure"

36% support it.

Re: Iranians describe scenes of catastrophe after Tehran's oil depots bombed

#66

Post by lwansbrough »

spiderfarmer wrote: post #30
lwansbrough wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tell me: is the US supposed to stand idly by while the Iranian regime develops nuclear weapons? They pursue nuclear weapons of their own volition, by the way. There are paranuclear states and nuclear threshold states which have not pursued nuclear weapons and have delivered on providing for their people in every manner in which a human society needs. So what does Iran hope to achieve that diplomacy cannot? At what po…

Well. After you've misled the world into supporting the USA in Iraq: "WHERE IS THE PROOF?" This time, you didn't even try to submit proof. The "feeling" of your delusional president should be enough. Or not even that, since the reasoning changes daily. Try harder.

I'm not American. There is a host of publicly available proof of Iran's pursuit of nuclear weapons. It is not, and has never been, a well kept secret of the regime.

Re: Iranians describe scenes of catastrophe after Tehran's oil depots bombed

#67

Post by whycombigator »

lwansbrough wrote: post #20
thowjofadf89234 wrote: post #6

Price of a nation disagreeing from turning its people into lowly peasants of the Global Liberal Borg (TM)'s and not accepting its "assigned" role of satrap-y. In contrast, look at the ignominious history in India (-n subcontinent) over the past millennia - whose moron elites are so deluded that they end up selling even more Anglo-American colonization in the name of decolonization. Fascinating evolution of these two…

Tell me: is the US supposed to stand idly by while the Iranian regime develops nuclear weapons? They pursue nuclear weapons of their own volition, by the way. There are paranuclear states and nuclear threshold states which have not pursued nuclear weapons and have delivered on providing for their people in every manner in which a human society needs. So what does Iran hope to achieve that diplomacy cannot? At what po…

I'm not sure what Iran having nukes does other than change the power dynamics in the Middle East to one where Israel can't bomb civilians with such impunity...

North Korea and Pakistan has nukes.

Re: Iranians describe scenes of catastrophe after Tehran's oil depots bombed

#68

Post by kdheiwns »

lukan wrote: post #65
kdheiwns wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A lot of people voted on a platform of pissing off a lot of people. A lot of people are pissed. Polls on the day of the invasion indicated a lack of support; since then a lot of people have shown that they're pissed, and now that voter base is supporting the admin and these actions because they see people getting pissed. It sounds petty and dumb. Unfortunately, that's what's happening. 44% support the invasion. [1] T…

The source seems bad, for some reasons they added the 10% of "unsure" to "supports". "the new survey found 56% of Americans oppose U.S. military action in Iran, while 44% support it." But later: "A majority -- 54% -- of Americans disapprove of how Trump is handling Iran. Another 36% approve and 10% are unsure" 36% support it.

They're different questions. One is whether they support the way Trump is doing it. The other is whether they support a war overall.

Their reason for supporting a war but not the way Trump is doing it could range from it being too extreme to not being extreme enough. Some people unironically want nuclear weapons to be dropped and will settle for nothing less.

Re: Iranians describe scenes of catastrophe after Tehran's oil depots bombed

#69

Post by lwansbrough »

kuerbel wrote: post #44
lwansbrough wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tell me: is the US supposed to stand idly by while the Iranian regime develops nuclear weapons? They pursue nuclear weapons of their own volition, by the way. There are paranuclear states and nuclear threshold states which have not pursued nuclear weapons and have delivered on providing for their people in every manner in which a human society needs. So what does Iran hope to achieve that diplomacy cannot? At what po…

It was trump who killed off the original agreement. The IAEA was content with the way the inspections went, Trump just once again talked out of his ass.

As far as I know, most countries don't require such an agreement because they don't develop nuclear weapons. Are we forgetting that Iran has autonomy?

Re: Iranians describe scenes of catastrophe after Tehran's oil depots bombed

#70

Post by phr4ts »

List of terrorist groups sponsored by Iran Government

1. Hezbollah (Lebanon)

2. Hamas (Gaza Strip)

3. Palestinian Islamic Jihad (Gaza Strip/West Bank)

4. The Houthis / Ansar Allah (Yemen)

5. Kata'ib Hezbollah (Iraq)

6. Asa'ib Ahl al-Haq (Iraq)

7. Harakat al-Nujaba (Iraq)

8. Kata'ib Sayyid al-Shuhada (Iraq)

9. Harakat Ansar Allah al-Awfiya (Iraq)

10. Kata'ib al-Imam Ali (Iraq)

11. Badr Organization (Iraq)

12. Liwa Fatemiyoun (Syria/Afghanistan)

13. Liwa Zaynabiyoun (Syria/Pakistan)

14. Al-Ashtar Brigades (Bahrain)

15. Saraya al-Mukhtar (Bahrain)

16. Al-Aqsa Martyrs' Brigades (West Bank)

17. Popular Resistance Committees (Gaza Strip)

18. Lions' Den (West Bank)

19. Hezbollah Al-Hijaz (Saudi Arabia)

20. Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps (IRGC) - Quds Force (Regional/Iran)

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