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What's driving rising business costs?

libertystreeteconomics.newyorkfed.org

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Re: What's driving rising business costs?

#61
post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a video as to how the match works here: https://www.nrmp.org/intro-to-the-match/how-matching-algorit... Basically, you interview at a bunch of programs and then rank them. The programs (hospitals) rank applicants and then the algorithm does its magic to "match" applicants to programs. Now, if one doesn't match with any of them, there's something called the scramble where a med student works with their program…

Appreciate the perspective. > A not small number of the rural docs are foreign born and trained and they essentially work this crappy jobs until they have permanent residency and then they move to more desirable markets. Not sure that I follow how "rural" necessarily begets "crappy" though. Is the working quality of life somehow that much worse, or is it the relative social isolation and/or lack of recreational optio…

It's a combination of factors. Rural hospitals and clinics tend to be under-resourced with lack of equipment in buildings that aren't particularly nice. As far as small town, if you like it, great. However, people who are highly educated tend to like to be around others who are similarly educated and that's difficult to find in a rural town unless it's also a university town. There tends to be a lack of school options for their children and given how much they spent on their own education, they tend to prioritize this highly. There tends to be a lack of town infrastructure like good grocery stores, or theater, or museums, or other amenities. Docs also have their own medical needs and understand that those can't be met at small clinics, so they like to have access to good hospitals. Imagine intimately knowing all the ways something like childbirth can kill you and also knowing that there's not an appropriately trained surgeon in town. By the time one finishes their training, they're probably in their 30s and may want to find a partner. Options tend to be limited in small towns. On the darker side of things, foreign people are often not particularly welcomed in rural towns and this can be a particularly bitter experience for the foreign docs that are essentially forced to work there.

So, no, it's not just an urbanite out of their comfort zone. There's a whole host of issues. And, to be clear, we need people to work these jobs, but it's not particularly pleasant for a lot of them.

Re: What's driving rising business costs?

#62
post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Appreciate the perspective. > A not small number of the rural docs are foreign born and trained and they essentially work this crappy jobs until they have permanent residency and then they move to more desirable markets. Not sure that I follow how "rural" necessarily begets "crappy" though. Is the working quality of life somehow that much worse, or is it the relative social isolation and/or lack of recreational optio…

It's a combination of factors. Rural hospitals and clinics tend to be under-resourced with lack of equipment in buildings that aren't particularly nice. As far as small town, if you like it, great. However, people who are highly educated tend to like to be around others who are similarly educated and that's difficult to find in a rural town unless it's also a university town. There tends to be a lack of school option…

Ahh, grokked. Thanks for helping me better empathize with such a nuanced situation.

Re: What's driving rising business costs?

#63
post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s a red flag whenever someone talks about healthcare and they focus on health insurance companies and hospital administrators. It’s a sign that they’re working backwards from some ideological beef rather than looking at where the costs actually are. Health insurance companies have profit margins around 5% or less. Hospitals are half that. A Subway franchise has a higher profit margin. That’s just not where your he…

Hmm...sniff test sampling: - HCA[1]: FY25 profit margin = 9.0% - UHS[2]: FY25 profit margin = 8.6% - THC[3]: FY25 profit margin = 6.6% Yeah, a bit of disaggregation is likely needed here, but in these companies, labor expense as a percentage of revenue is on a declining YoY trend while revenue continues to grow. What's the prevailing ballpark ratio of doctors to all other hospital staff again? And what details are bu…

Here’s industry wide stats for hospitals: https://www.chartis.com/insights/hospital-margins-trend-high.... Median hospital operating margin is 1.5% in 2024. Even among the top 50 systems, the median is 2.3%. https://hospitalogy.com/articles/2025-05-29/top-50-health-sy...

Re: What's driving rising business costs?

#64
post #41
post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s a red flag whenever someone talks about healthcare and they focus on health insurance companies and hospital administrators. It’s a sign that they’re working backwards from some ideological beef rather than looking at where the costs actually are. Health insurance companies have profit margins around 5% or less. Hospitals are half that. A Subway franchise has a higher profit margin. That’s just not where your he…

The issue is not that health insurance companies make too much money (ok, it's not the only issue)They, along with the system they put in place introduce immense amounts of friction into every medical interaction and prevent doctors from practicing good medicine.

No, the system puts in too much friction. Insurance companies are part of the problem, but so are doctors. Everyone in the chain has an incentive to delivery unnecessary services, and everyone in the chain has little incentive to be efficient.

Re: What's driving rising business costs?

#65
post #52
post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, and that national administration has to include national standards of care. The government should set cost-effective standards of care for various scenarios. Then doctors should have immunity to lawsuits as long as they followed the standard of care. You shouldn’t be able to sue a doctor and get some expert up there saying he should have run these additional tests or tried this additional treatment.

You can sue anyone for anything. That doesn't mean you're going to win. It's already extremely rare that a physician who actually followed an established standard of care to be found liable in a malpractice case. We should be hesitant to prevent anyone from seeking redress through the courts. I'm also skeptical about putting the federal government in charge of establishing standards of care. We already see that some…

> I'm also skeptical about putting the federal government in charge of establishing standards of care.

Making the government the single payer without setting national standards of care would cause costs to explode. You can’t point to other countries saving money by having single payer without reproducing their systems. Ideally, you’d have to go through some arduous bureaucracy to make a medical claim, like in the UK: https://resolution.nhs.uk/services/claims-management/advice-....

Re: What's driving rising business costs?

#66
post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hmm...sniff test sampling: - HCA[1]: FY25 profit margin = 9.0% - UHS[2]: FY25 profit margin = 8.6% - THC[3]: FY25 profit margin = 6.6% Yeah, a bit of disaggregation is likely needed here, but in these companies, labor expense as a percentage of revenue is on a declining YoY trend while revenue continues to grow. What's the prevailing ballpark ratio of doctors to all other hospital staff again? And what details are bu…

Here’s industry wide stats for hospitals: https://www.chartis.com/insights/hospital-margins-trend-high... . Median hospital operating margin is 1.5% in 2024. Even among the top 50 systems, the median is 2.3%. https://hospitalogy.com/articles/2025-05-29/top-50-health-sy...

The median US hospital is also a nonprofit; indeed, more than half are. I fail to see how focusing on this opaque median measure tells us anything meaningful.

Care to speculate on the trends I pointed out? I simply don't see how compensation for doctors is the problem.

Re: What's driving rising business costs?

#67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s a vicious cycle, but something needs to pump the brakes before the metaphorical engine explodes. * Stop tying healthcare to private insurers and employers. State-level single-payer models by default via fixed payroll deductions per employee, and let the government dictate or negotiate costs. * Re-work incentives for efficient utility usage. Incentivize self-generation for power through lower electric rates if a…

> Stop tying healthcare to private insurers and employers. State-level single-payer models by default via fixed payroll deductions per employee, and let the government dictate or negotiate costs. Most state-run workers compensation and Medicaid funds are already insolvent. Until that gets resolved, no attempt at creating a single payer fund is possible. > stop subsidizing huge consumers (like data centers) by raising…

> Most state-run workers compensation and Medicaid funds are already insolvent. Until that gets resolved, no attempt at creating a single payer fund is possible.

Because the government handcuffs itself willingly by prohibiting negotiations with providers and companies on costs at all levels. Which I point out multiple times in the comment. But you're right, solvency is an issue, and a fixable one: stop giving employers tax breaks on such a critical benefit as healthcare, raise taxes on those most able to pay them, and allow the government to set rates and care standards as a baseline that employers and private insurers must compete against.

These problems aren't hard to solve, it just requires accepting such controversial thoughts as, "y'know, maybe shareholder value should come last as a matter of public health".

> Utilities are using data centers as a scapegoat - the reality is most are stuck with fiscal liabilities due to COVID along with insurance and raising prices as a result.

Got evidence of this? Because there's mounting evidence from co-ops, private utilities, and public utilities that actually, no, new DC builds are not only not paying their fair share, but also employing (sometimes illicit) power generators on-site due to being unable to acquire enough power at affordable (to them) rates.

>The big issue is the COVID pandemic era liabilities that continue to require to be paid out to this day.

You keep saying this, but my counter-point - nay, my original point - is that this existed before COVID. What might be happening in this precise moment still have ties to COVID, sure, but the fundamental systems, incentives, and structures existed long before COVID and have not been addressed.

> Becuase that's not something that dramatically impacts the bottom line in most industries - most businesses can afford increasing salaries a couple dollars an hour by reducing capex next year, reducing hours for existing employees, or moving employees to the salaried bucket.

Payroll is one of - if not the - single biggest expense in business; it's why they're all wet at the prospect of AI replacing all labor, even if it's a fever dream. Workers are already squeezed to the bone, and companies - or more specifically, corporate leaders - have decades of history of refusing to pay wages commensurate with productivity gains or cost of living adjustments. Payroll also has knock-on effects on insurance (the more workers make, the higher insurance rates need to be to cover potential insurable losses), so yeah, there's a bit of a cycle here where wages go up, making workmen's comp go up, making wages go up, etc. You can already see this in unemployment benefit caps that haven't kept pace with wage increases since the 2008 recession (MA still caps benefits at such a low amount that they can only barely cover a month of average rent - if you qualify for the maximum amount).

> The pandemic was brutal and we're still facing feeling it's reverberations to this day.

The pandemic was a blip on par with the 2008 recession; yes, there are tails to it (just like 2008), but those tails only evolved because of the underlying systems and structures that allowed the problem to escalate in the first place. Simply handwashing everything as "oopsie, pandemic happened" is dangerously ignorant of the machinations still underpinning everything going on, and represents a refusal to accept that long-term problems require long-term solutions - which in turn requires acknowledging that these problems didn't just spontaneously evolve overnight, or during a single crisis.

Re: What's driving rising business costs?

#68
post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Stop tying healthcare to private insurers and employers. State-level single-payer models by default via fixed payroll deductions per employee, and let the government dictate or negotiate costs. Most state-run workers compensation and Medicaid funds are already insolvent. Until that gets resolved, no attempt at creating a single payer fund is possible. > stop subsidizing huge consumers (like data centers) by raising…

What do you proscribe as a solution then?

As the commenter points out, they don't have one.

They're all too happy to downvote and naysay anyone demanding change, but never have an alternative beyond personal nihilism or fatalism. "This is definitely a problem, but fuck if I know how to solve it, and if I can't solve it then nobody else can discuss solving it either."

I hate it.

Re: What's driving rising business costs?

#69
post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Show us the data. You want to make the claim, bring the evidence.

shimman claimed >hundreds of billions in profit that health insurance companies extract yet no request for evidence? Here's data for medical loss ratios: https://www.kff.org/private-insurance/medical-loss-ratio-reb... https://www.oliverwyman.com/our-expertise/insights/2023/mar/... Here are the sub 5% profit margins for the publicly listed insurers. On the same website, clicking on the "Revenue & Profit" tab will show…

I presume that hundreds of billions in profit refers to money extracted over multiple years, not per year, there’s no other way it makes sense.

>and most of that is probably not even insurance related since a large portion comes from UNH's enormous healthcare provider business

Isn’t that part of the problem? There are interdependent layers in the health care industry each designed to extract as much wealth as possible.

In the case of UNH, how much money flows as an expense on the insurance side into income on the provider side? Isn’t the relative profitability between these two sides an accounting trick?

It seems strange to me that you’re saying doctor salaries are too high, yet the majority of profits come from their provider business, which is where doctor salaries would be tracked as an expense, right?

“Less than $50b/yr profit” as if that’s a small amount.

I agree that retail investors would not want to be shareholders of insurance companies, but that’s mostly because I think retail investors are just chum in the water for institutional investors and prop trading firms to feast on.

If it’s so stupid to be a health insurance shareholder, then where does that leave their senior leadership and major shareholders? They’re morons for not immediately divesting and moving into fast food, right?

Re: What's driving rising business costs?

#70
post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

shimman claimed >hundreds of billions in profit that health insurance companies extract yet no request for evidence? Here's data for medical loss ratios: https://www.kff.org/private-insurance/medical-loss-ratio-reb... https://www.oliverwyman.com/our-expertise/insights/2023/mar/... Here are the sub 5% profit margins for the publicly listed insurers. On the same website, clicking on the "Revenue & Profit" tab will show…

I presume that hundreds of billions in profit refers to money extracted over multiple years, not per year, there’s no other way it makes sense. >and most of that is probably not even insurance related since a large portion comes from UNH's enormous healthcare provider business Isn’t that part of the problem? There are interdependent layers in the health care industry each designed to extract as much wealth as possibl…

> It seems strange to me that you’re saying doctor salaries are too high

I am not. If anything, I think doctors are underpaid. I would not want to spend my 20s and early 30s in that grind, there are easier ways to earn that much money.

> In the case of UNH, how much money flows as an expense on the insurance side into income on the provider side? Isn’t the relative profitability between these two sides an accounting trick?

UNH’s overall profit margins being much less than pure provider groups shows this cannot be a large effect.

>“Less than $50b/yr profit” as if that’s a small amount.

Nominal profit is a meaningless figure when analyzing the pricing power and/or viability of a business. Profit margin is the only figure to look at here, and there are 6 other publicly listed insurers to benchmark to. Additionally, UNH competes with many large non profit organizations, selling essentially fungible services.

> If it’s so stupid to be a health insurance shareholder, then where does that leave their senior leadership and major shareholders? They’re morons for not immediately divesting and moving into fast food, right?

Depends which fast food. Most are probably even shittier businesses, but if it’s McDonalds which has a decent real estate business, then it might be worth moving. However, the execs would earn far more if they were at similar places in other organizations with higher profit margins, like tech/pharma/finance/oil.

Obviously, if you can’t get a job at Alphabet/Eli Lilly/JPM/etc, then you stay with insurance and earn whatever you can there.

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