Live data from Hacker News

Why can't you tune your guitar? (2019)

ethanhein.com

61–70 of 184 posts

Re: Why can't you tune your guitar? (2019)

#61
There is no way to tune your guitar so that all the successive open fourths (and the one major third) are pure, without the high E being quite off pitch relative to the low one.

But, unless you mainly play stacked fourths, why would you make it a requirement? You can, for instance, tune instead to get pure fretted fifths between adjacent strings, and fretted octaves between strings one removed.

The real reason you can't get your guitar in tune is one which makes none of the above matter. Most guitars don't have good intonation. Most acoustic guitars don't have movable saddles to set intonation at the bridge. Electric ones do. For accurate tuning, you need not only compensation at the bridge, but also at the nut.

https://guitarnutcompensation.com/

On my main axe, I installed a small screw next to the nut, right under the G string. Just doing the G string makes a huge difference!

Here is a test: play an open D power chord (open D, A on G string, D on B string) it is very clean. Now release the A to play a 1-4-8 G power chord (open D, open G, D).

On my compensated guitar, both of them are crisply in tune. Without nut intonation, one of the two will have ugly beats. If you tune one, the other goes wonky.

When I first heard how good it is after putting in the compensating screw, I was astonished and at the same time filled with the regret of not having done it decades earlier.

Why the G? The unwound G string on electrics is the most susceptible to bad intonation at the nut, because it undergoes the greatest pitch change when it is fretted. Guitarists like to bend that one for the same reason. Fretting it at the first or second frets makes it go markedly sharp; for that reason we need to shorten the distance between the nut and the first fret to get that sharpened interval back down to a semitone.

This is less of a problem on guitars with a wound G, which has a lot more tension in it to compensate for its weight, and doesn't pitch-bend nearly as easily.

Re: Why can't you tune your guitar? (2019)

#62
post #5

Absurd. A guitar within tolerance is in tune. It's a fundamental feature of the instrument. Not a flaw. Music doesn't live in an abstract realm of perfections, it is an expression however formed. The fact that we can measure it is one thing. But the music or instruments do not need conform to discrete measurements to satisfy. I know engineers hate this, but ask any musician. It's like arguing that a sitar and its sca…

Any musician with enough training will tell you which notes are out of tune on their well-tuned instrument, and how they correct for it as they play. Just because we live with the trade-off doesn’t make it correct in any other sense.

I don't think this is generally true for the guitar. There are even songs that have notes intentionally out of tune (e.g. Scar Tissue by the Red Hot Chili Peppers).

Agree with the OP that the characteristics of the guitar, including its "out of perfect tune", is what gives its music its unique characteristic. It's not a bug it's a feature. There might be some people with perfect pitch who get annoyed but for most people that's "colour" and the sound they expect and associate with their favorite music. If you played those songs on an "ideal" guitar they would not sound right.

Re: Why can't you tune your guitar? (2019)

#63
post #28

> If you watch slow-motion video of a guitar string vibrating, you’ll see a complex, evolving blend of squiggles. These squiggles are the mathematical sum of all of the string’s different harmonics. This is incorrect. If you watch a video like [0], the squiggles aren't real, they're an artifact of a rolling shutter camera. A real slowmo camera will correctly show the entire string vibrating[1]. The rest of the articl…

Hold on. Your first video is indeed a rolling shutter artifact. But your second video never shows enough of the string to see the harmonics. When you (for example) pluck with a finger on the 12th fret, you absolutely do have a real physical squiggle vibrating in the string, with one node and two antinodes. With a 7th fret harmonic, there are 3 antinodes, with a 5th fret harmonic there are four. There are squiggles, and you can see them with real slowmo.

Re: Why can't you tune your guitar? (2019)

#64
For some reason it’s taken me decades of playing guitar to become good enough at tuning and also sensitive enough to really feel the fact that I can’t tune the guitar. Recently I finally grokked the simple reason that 12 TET cannot be perfect, and it doesn’t take a long article to see it. I was kind-of aware of the major third problem, but I naively thought fifths were still perfect.

A 12 TET chromatic is 2^(1/12), and a 12 TET fifth would be 2^(7/12). A perfect fifth is a 3:2 ratio. Those numbers are slightly different, and that’s enough to understand it. Another way of thinking about it is that if you were to complete the cycle of fifths purely by stacking fifths, you should end up on the note you started with but many octaves higher. But you should be able to see that starting on C1 and going by octaves will produce a number that is purely powers of 2, whereas stacking fifths will necessarily involve powers of both 2 and 3, so they can never be equal, I can stack fifths and never land on my original note’s octaves.

Re: Why can't you tune your guitar? (2019)

#65
post #5

Absurd. A guitar within tolerance is in tune. It's a fundamental feature of the instrument. Not a flaw. Music doesn't live in an abstract realm of perfections, it is an expression however formed. The fact that we can measure it is one thing. But the music or instruments do not need conform to discrete measurements to satisfy. I know engineers hate this, but ask any musician. It's like arguing that a sitar and its sca…

Many musicians can readily confirm that the difference between temperaments can be felt and heard by trained ears. A guitar tuned to equal temperament has major thirds that warble audibly. It feels different when you use just intonation, which isn’t generally possible on a guitar.

Re: Why can't you tune your guitar? (2019)

#67
Article reads like a well akchuallly to is your guitar in tune.

I probably haven't tuned my guitar to concert tuning for a long time.

I tried rocksmith and often tuned to that otherwise I just keep it in tune with itself and what approximately sounds right to me.

My fingers are too fat for any precision to matter too much. So long as it's in tune with itself intonation is vaguely right and the action is acceptable no one will notice my solo playing in the garage by myself is out of tune are the fifth harmonic.

Re: Why can't you tune your guitar? (2019)

#68
Not all instruments are limited to a fixed set of pitches. A good classical string player micro-adjusts each individual note to adapt to its harmonic context. For example, making all the thirds and fifths sound good even when the key changes, or adjusting a leading tone up or down very slightly to make it even more leading.

Another way to think of it is that they have to hit every pitch without assistance from the instrument anyway, so they learn to make every note sound “good” rather than hitting a mathematically defined frequency.

Re: Why can't you tune your guitar? (2019)

#69
I’m surprised they don’t show true temperament frets.

https://strandbergguitars.com/en-WW/magazine/true-temperamen...

They solve exactly for this issue, and sound amazing in use. The downside is that you are somewhat locked into a given tuning.

Alternatively you can take the approach of guitars with movable frets so you can adjust them per tuning.

https://youtu.be/EZC69A8TsJ8?si=7hUIb7FEKb45eV_L

These are generally used for microtonal playing but can also effectively be true temperament as well.

Guitars with gut frets used to have adjustable positions, which allowed for some mitigation via changing fret positions too

Re: Why can't you tune your guitar? (2019)

#70
post #5

Absurd. A guitar within tolerance is in tune. It's a fundamental feature of the instrument. Not a flaw. Music doesn't live in an abstract realm of perfections, it is an expression however formed. The fact that we can measure it is one thing. But the music or instruments do not need conform to discrete measurements to satisfy. I know engineers hate this, but ask any musician. It's like arguing that a sitar and its sca…

I am a jazz guitarist and am sympathetic to this comment: the way I tune my guitar these days is hitting an E tuning fork, playing a particular E7 chord, and deciding if it sounds good: e —0– B —0– G —7– D —6– A —7– E —0– Learned it from Jimmy Bruno. I despise digital tuners. However it is worth noting: a properly-tuned guitar will never be able to play a “barbershop seventh,” which hits the natural harmonic dominant…

There's more than one way to be sympathetic :)

With 12 of the strings on a sitar having equal (thin) diameter, but different lengths so they can be tuned to the 12 notes in the scale, these are also unplayed strings which contribute to the sound by resonating underneath the main course of strings which are the ones fretted and manually played on.

That's so endearing I guess that's why they call them sympathetic strings ;)

While my guitar gently weeps, etc. . .

Post reply on HN