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Everett shuts down Flock camera network after judge rules footage public record

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Re: Everett shuts down Flock camera network after judge rules footage public record

#61

Post by ben_w »

KaiserPro wrote: post #53
ben_w wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even with that, I do mind. Just as two trivial examples, even though neither affects me personally: The estimated number of heroin users in the UK exceeds the total prison population. The number of class-A drug users in the UK is estimated to be so high that if they actually followed the minimum sentencing guidelines for possession, it would cause a catastrophic economic disaster both from all the people no longer wo…

> Even just speeding offences, I think you probably catch everyone who actually drives in the UK, So we have a fucktonne of speed cameras allover the place: https://www.speedcameramap.co.uk/ (you need to zoom in there are so fucking many) But we have less redlight cameras than the US. we also have hatching cameras (yellow hatched boxes mean no stopping, usually at junctions) we also have bus lane cameras, where if yo…

> So we have a fucktonne of speed cameras allover the place: https://www.speedcameramap.co.uk/ (you need to zoom in there are so fucking many)

Doesn't seem that many compared to what I was describing. At the scale of a country, "a lot" != "a high %".

Your point 3 is the biggest divergence between them.

Point 5 is only kinda true, the failure mode is weird: there's good reasons why the speed limit isn't enforced until you're significantly over it, but that in turn means it has to be set lower than physics and reaction times dictate, which in turn means people push back against them. 20 zones knowing people will do 25, chosen because if they were 30 zones people would do 35 and 35 is too fast, that kind of thing.

People who know that, let themselves go a bit over the limit; but a bit over means they get caught some of the time because of the same small occasional variations that are the reason why the speed limit isn't enforced at x+1 mph in the first place.

Re: Everett shuts down Flock camera network after judge rules footage public record

#62

Post by Terr_ »

throwawayqqq11 wrote: post #41
jmward01 wrote: post #33

I might be good with legal guarantees, meaning jail time for those involved, that the only place images on these devices went was local to the municipality collecting them and that they were only accessed for very well defined reasons by very specific people. The core issues are that aggregation and exfiltration of this data means that privacy is dead and the AI world allows analysis for almost no cost. We need an id…

There is another looming threat of modern day surveilance: previously hidden correlations. The data you found benign sharing in the past might allow unpleasant conclusions in the future and might not even come from you personally . Think about what toys you bought for your kids, or in what college milieu your worldview developed.

"Using metadata to find Paul Revere", a what-if of the American revolution.

https://kieranhealy.org/blog/archives/2013/06/09/using-metad...

Re: Everett shuts down Flock camera network after judge rules footage public record

#63

Post by jen20 »

nine_k wrote: post #57
egorfine wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Another example is road traffic law. Even just speeding offences, I think you probably catch everyone who actually drives in the UK, often enough that after a month the only people left allowed to drive would be people like me who don't even own a car. You don't have to strip the driving licenses. You should impose a fine and not an extremely painful one for starters. And then probably within less than a year the w…

If speeding is not something that happens constantly, then a radar could detect the instances of speeding, and only turn on a camera when a speeding car is nearby. This would keep the majority of passing cars from being recorded, and would record the fewer cars the fewer drivers would be speeding.

This is exactly how non-AI assisted speed cameras [1] have worked for almost four decades. You don’t even need video for it.

[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gatso

Re: Everett shuts down Flock camera network after judge rules footage public record

#64

Post by jen20 »

Ylpertnodi wrote: post #51
sneak wrote: post #40

I am less worried about Flock ALPR (which are aimed in the direction of traffic flow to read rear number plates) as I am about the THOUSANDS of facial recognition cameras installed in the last year in all four directions at nearly every intersection in southern Nevada and many many cities in southern California (LA notably excepted). These are mounted above the stoplights and aimed against traffic at stoplights to re…

> I would be surprised if this isn’t also happening... "I wouldn't be surprised if this is also happening..." Only the second sounds correct to me.

I believe both to be correct but “would be surprised if this isn’t happening” to be a stronger statement than “wouldn’t be surprised if it were”.

Re: Everett shuts down Flock camera network after judge rules footage public record

#66

Post by masfuerte »

dotancohen wrote: post #25
CamperBob2 wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The defense of the photos not being government business until accessed seems shaky. It's reminiscent of the NSA's argument that data "collection" occurs only when a search is performed on existing "gathered" data. File under "Stuff that's only legal when the government does it."

What should I be reading?

An older article was reposted here yesterday:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47210572

Re: Everett shuts down Flock camera network after judge rules footage public record

#67

Post by Thorrez »

ben_w wrote: post #48
fc417fc802 wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't mind a local AI on an airgapped security camera network monitoring a camera and issuing an alert to a security guard. The issues are internet connectivity, data retention/mining/sale, and non-local processing (ie handing stuff off to a third party that does who knows what and probably doesn't take security seriously).

Even with that, I do mind. Just as two trivial examples, even though neither affects me personally: The estimated number of heroin users in the UK exceeds the total prison population. The number of class-A drug users in the UK is estimated to be so high that if they actually followed the minimum sentencing guidelines for possession, it would cause a catastrophic economic disaster both from all the people no longer wo…

Speeding is a special case, because it's unclear what the lawmakers, road designers, and police intend. When the speed limit is 65 mph, do they actually intend for everyone to go no faster? I don't think so. I think the lawmakers, if driving in traffic, want people to go a bit faster. Same with the police. And I think the road designers design the roads knowing most people will speed.

I want to follow the law. But when it comes to speeding, it's hard for me to follow the letter of the law, because all the parties involved in creating and enforcing the law don't want me to follow the letter of the law. So I instead follow the intent of the law, and speed up to 9mph. When Google Maps pops up a "police ahead" warning, I don't slow down at all, because I'm following the intent of the law, and that's what police around where I live enforce. If I'm driving in other areas of the country, I'm less certain what police want, so I'll be more likely to follow the letter of the law.

If there was automated strict enforcement of speeding, then it would be clear to me that the letter of the law is the intent, so I would gladly obey the letter of the law. There would certainly need to be a transition period with clear warnings that in the future, the letter of the law will be enforced, instead of the current status of something looser.

Re: Everett shuts down Flock camera network after judge rules footage public record

#68

Post by direwolf20 »

Thorrez wrote: post #67
ben_w wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even with that, I do mind. Just as two trivial examples, even though neither affects me personally: The estimated number of heroin users in the UK exceeds the total prison population. The number of class-A drug users in the UK is estimated to be so high that if they actually followed the minimum sentencing guidelines for possession, it would cause a catastrophic economic disaster both from all the people no longer wo…

Speeding is a special case, because it's unclear what the lawmakers, road designers, and police intend. When the speed limit is 65 mph, do they actually intend for everyone to go no faster? I don't think so. I think the lawmakers, if driving in traffic, want people to go a bit faster. Same with the police. And I think the road designers design the roads knowing most people will speed. I want to follow the law. But wh…

The purpose of a system is what it does. In Australia, they want you to go 50. In the USA, they want a reason to fine you.

Re: Everett shuts down Flock camera network after judge rules footage public record

#69

Post by DrScientist »

I always think that the best way to get stuff regulated is make those in power feel the risks.

So if people started using something like flock to embarrass politicians, business leaders, or newspaper leader writers then suddenly privacy might become a big issue.

Re: Everett shuts down Flock camera network after judge rules footage public record

#70

Post by direwolf20 »

atoav wrote: post #39
thfuran wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And the government needs to be restricted from buying data it wouldn’t be permitted to collect itself.

No. Everyone should be restricted from buying (or better: collecting) it, otherwise you just created the business model for evil corp that does the job and collects your tax dollar to do the same thing.

How can an evil corp that isn't the government tax you?
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