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Open source calculator firmware DB48X forbids CA/CO use due to age verification

github.com

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Re: Open source calculator firmware DB48X forbids CA/CO use due to age verification

#61

Post by altairprime »

ziml77 wrote: post #6

So DB48X provides a covered application store? (e) (1) “Covered application store” means a publicly available internet website, software application, online service, or platform that distributes and facilitates the download of applications from third-party developers to users of a computer, a mobile device, or any other general purpose computing that can access a covered application store or can download an applicati…

“can download” could refer either to transfers initiated by the user, or to transfers initiated from the device. The language “from [device] developers to users of [that device]” clarifies that this applies if users can access a third-party directory and/or repository of applications.

I strongly encourage the EFF to sue the FSF over not shipping age verification in Emacs, since in every respect Emacs fits these criteria; it is a computer environment that avid users can reside fully within to operate their system, and its publisher operates a directory+repository system at https://elpa.gnu.org. I think that both organizations would be excited to pursue that lawsuit pro bono, since it would evidence such significant flaws in the law that it might be struck by the court.

Incidentally, this likely also implicates Tesla and BMW as not requiring age verification before allowing users to download updates containing new pay-to-unlock applications from their vehicles’ in-app purchase marketplaces. I’m sure they would both be happy to help overturn this law once implicated in violating it.

Re: Open source calculator firmware DB48X forbids CA/CO use due to age verification

#62

Post by renewiltord »

ziml77 wrote: post #6

So DB48X provides a covered application store? (e) (1) “Covered application store” means a publicly available internet website, software application, online service, or platform that distributes and facilitates the download of applications from third-party developers to users of a computer, a mobile device, or any other general purpose computing that can access a covered application store or can download an applicati…

If you are providing legal advice as a legal professional, happy to follow your advice. Are you willing to provide legal indemnity to me? I assume it will be cheap, say $12/year.

Re: Open source calculator firmware DB48X forbids CA/CO use due to age verification

#63

Post by Brian_K_White »

fc417fc802 wrote: post #48
Brian_K_White wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is already way too much as far as I'm concerned. It's not that it's difficult, it's that it's arbitrary and a form of commanded speech or action. Smallness and easiness isn't an excuse. If you write a story, there must be a character in it somewhere that reminds kids not to smoke. That's all. It's very easy.

I actually don't mind mandating the market take reasonable actions. The EU mandating USB C was an excellent move that materially improved things. However I think mandated actions should to the greatest extent possible be minimal, privacy preserving, and have an unambiguous goal that is clearly accomplished. This legislation fails in that regard because it mandates sharing personal information with third parties where…

You've confused and confabulated like 11 different things there. None of what you said has anything to do with either what I said or what the law says.

The way this currently exists is basically unenfoceable because the critical terms are not even defined. It's not even ultimately intelligible, which is a prerequisite to enforcing, or even being able to tell where it does and does not apply, and whether some covered entity is or is not in compliance.

Re: Open source calculator firmware DB48X forbids CA/CO use due to age verification

#64

Post by pixl97 »

hagbard_c wrote: post #59
drnick1 wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ultimately, it does not matter. This legal notice is just theater, as anyone from CA or CO can still download, build and use the program. Linux distributions will just do the same.

Well, no, that's not how laws like this work. Of course people in these states can just install the software and it is very likely nothing more will come from that unless some politico in one of these states decides she has a beef against the company, group or person which distributes the software. When that happens she'll have this law at hand to whack them with because the knowingly violated state law so they need…

I'd also put notice in the usage that the offices of the representatives of the politicians that voted for this law they are not allowed to use the software as a historical wall of shame.

Re: Open source calculator firmware DB48X forbids CA/CO use due to age verification

#65

Post by aleph_minus_one »

ziml77 wrote: post #6

So DB48X provides a covered application store? (e) (1) “Covered application store” means a publicly available internet website, software application, online service, or platform that distributes and facilitates the download of applications from third-party developers to users of a computer, a mobile device, or any other general purpose computing that can access a covered application store or can download an applicati…

> So DB48X provides a covered application store?

Developers are not lawyers, so they cannot be expected to know every subtle detail of the law, and not how these laws are then interpreted (in a often non-logical way) by courts.

Re: Open source calculator firmware DB48X forbids CA/CO use due to age verification

#66

Post by sgc »

netsharc wrote: post #14
lacoolj wrote: post #5

I don't see a definition for "operating system" in this legislation (California). "Operating system provider" is defined, but that's kinda useless unless "operating system" is defined first.

It seems there's also a definition error: > 1798.500. For the purposes of this title: > (i) “User” means a child that is the primary user of the device. Child is defined: > (d) “Child” means a natural person who is under 18 years of age. But that means this is impossible: > (b) (4) Whether the user is at least 18 years of age.

if (user is null) is leaving me way up in my feelings. Ambiguous value error: 'too true' is not an approved response. Please consult your legislator and try again.

Re: Open source calculator firmware DB48X forbids CA/CO use due to age verification

#67

Post by cosmic_cheese »

fc417fc802 wrote: post #53
cosmic_cheese wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> And on the actual matter of things, it's really sad to see California to be on the front line of this crap (this screams ageism). And, dear "adults", screw your parental authority so much. Whatever skills I've gained before the university I've done against an explicit parental prohibition. This is what I live off now. Screw you all. It's yet another surface that totalitarian parental control has crept into, and it'…

If this were the late 80s I would wholeheartedly agree with you. But it isn't. Every device under the sun seems to have a web browser and wifi built into it at this point. Even most TVs are "smart" these days. If you told me that your refrigerator had a web browser and an app store I would assume you were entirely serious. The internet is full of amazing things but it is simultaneously a largely unfiltered cesspool.…

I don’t agree. It’s still ultimately up to the parent to keep an eye on what their kids are up to, talk to them and prepare them to handle ugly things (which they will encounter at some point whether you prepare them for it or not, no matter how hard you try to keep them in a bubble), and if they feel necessary impose restrictions on a household basis.

Even if I did agree, the implementations being rolled out present far more danger to adults than requiring an ID to enter a physical establishment ever could. Internet ID systems are rife for political abuse for example, and requiring age attestation at the OS level endangers general purpose computing, adds yet more hoops for free open source OS projects to jump through, and risks making FOSS OSes illegal to use for those who need an escape hatch from their commercial counterparts the most.

Re: Open source calculator firmware DB48X forbids CA/CO use due to age verification

#68

Post by sgc »

riskable wrote: post #30
meatmanek wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

(c) “Application” means a software application that may be run or directed by a user on a computer, a mobile device, or any other general purpose computing device that can access a covered application store or download an application.

The calculator firmware is a "software application" that's run by a user on a mobile device but it can't access an application store or download applications. For that you need a PC. So github.com is the violator, here, since it's a software application that may be run by a user on a computer and can download applications (loads of them!).

Only if its js initiates downloads (even if just injecting other js), in which case, I guess yes??? Or does that fall onto the browser??? Sounds simple to figure out. Maybe everybody will abandon the term webapp now.

Re: Open source calculator firmware DB48X forbids CA/CO use due to age verification

#69

Post by nwallin »

ziml77 wrote: post #6

So DB48X provides a covered application store? (e) (1) “Covered application store” means a publicly available internet website, software application, online service, or platform that distributes and facilitates the download of applications from third-party developers to users of a computer, a mobile device, or any other general purpose computing that can access a covered application store or can download an applicati…

The law pertains to providers of covered application stores or operating system providers. Or, not and.

They are not a covered application store, but they are an operating system provider, so the law does apply to them.

Re: Open source calculator firmware DB48X forbids CA/CO use due to age verification

#70

Post by delfinom »

drnick1 wrote: post #10
hlieberman wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is no carve out in the law for open source. I don’t think it matters for this calculator’s firmware, because there’s no covered App Store, but it certainly would for most Linux distributions.

The law is irrelevant when it comes to open source. There is no one to turn to and bully for compliance. A government could presumably request that GitHub delete the repo, but the software will then simply move somewhere else, in a jurisdiction where these laws don't apply, or be distributed peer-to-peer. These attempts at curbing the freedom to write and distribute software are pathetic and will fail.

>There is no one to turn to and bully for compliance.

They can and will go after anyone that distributes it.

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