Live data from Hacker News

ASML unveils EUV light source advance that could yield 50% more chips by 2030

reuters.com

61–70 of 111 posts

Re: ASML unveils EUV light source advance that could yield 50% more chips by 2030

#61
post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The whole “exploding tiny drops of metal” in the middle of this is just Loony Toons. This machine is literally insane and two of the companies I am long-long on would be completely fucked without it.

You forgot WITH LASERS, and IN A VACUUM

IIRC from the Veritasium video[0] there is actually some hydrogen gas flowing at quite a high speed though the laser chamber to carry away the tin debris so that it does not accumulate on the mirrors.

[0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MiUHjLxm3V0

Re: ASML unveils EUV light source advance that could yield 50% more chips by 2030

#62
post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is such a thing as X-ray lithography, but it comes with significant challenges that make it not really worth it compared to EUV.

I'd like to hear more about these challenges

Stochastic effects become a bigger and bigger problem. At some point (EUV) a single photon has enough energy to ionize atoms, causing a cascade that causes effects to bloom outside of the illumination spot.

Re: ASML unveils EUV light source advance that could yield 50% more chips by 2030

#63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As I understand it, primarly because due to the high energy level of x-rays, light x-ray interacts very differently with materials[1]. Primarily they get absorbed, so very difficult to make mirrors or lenses, which are crucial for litography to redirect and focus the light on a specific miniscule point on the wafer. The primary method is to rely grazing angle reflection, but that per definition only allows you a tiny…

All of these problems or equivalent still exist in EUV. Litho industry had to kind of rethink the source and scanner because it went from all lenses to all mirrors in EUV. This is also why low NA and high NA EUV scanners were different phases. As I hear it, the decision had large economic component related to Masks and even OPC.

100%. EUV barely works. XRay litho takes all the issues with EUV and cranks them up to 11. It will take comparable effort to EUV, if not more, to get XRay litho up and running, and I'm not aware of anyone approaching this to anywhere near the level of investment that ASML (and others) have pumped into developing EUV tech. We may get there eventually as a species, but we're a ways off.

Re: ASML unveils EUV light source advance that could yield 50% more chips by 2030

#64
post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The whole “exploding tiny drops of metal” in the middle of this is just Loony Toons. This machine is literally insane and two of the companies I am long-long on would be completely fucked without it.

You forgot WITH LASERS, and IN A VACUUM

The old SemiAccurate article https://semiaccurate.com/2013/02/13/euv-moves-forward-two-st... was very funny.

Re: ASML unveils EUV light source advance that could yield 50% more chips by 2030

#65
post #50
post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Okay this is weird. > The key advancements in Monday's disclosure involved doubling the number of tin drops to about 100,000 every second, and shaping them into plasma using two smaller laser bursts, as opposed to today's machines that use a single shaping burst. This is covered in that video. Did they let him leak their Q1 plans?

That has been covered before in other videos[0] that this is their roadmap to higher power, so I'm also not sure what they have announced now that wasn't previously announced. [0]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MXnrzS3aGeM

From the first video I thought they had already shipped this, but it sounds like they were describing what their new model was.

This seems like a product with a very very long sales pipeline, so I wonder if they work on pre-orders with existing customers but announce delivery milestones only as they come?

Re: ASML unveils EUV light source advance that could yield 50% more chips by 2030

#66
post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You forgot WITH LASERS, and IN A VACUUM

IIRC from the Veritasium video[0] there is actually some hydrogen gas flowing at quite a high speed though the laser chamber to carry away the tin debris so that it does not accumulate on the mirrors. [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MiUHjLxm3V0

They account to every single tiny atom somehow too, but I think I fell asleep last time I watched the video.

Re: ASML unveils EUV light source advance that could yield 50% more chips by 2030

#67
post #11
post #3

This video is a really cool dive into EUV for the uninitiated (me) https://youtu.be/MiUHjLxm3V0?si=kEPSicC2WXYhcQ6L

The whole “exploding tiny drops of metal” in the middle of this is just Loony Toons. This machine is literally insane and two of the companies I am long-long on would be completely fucked without it.

Seeing this news story made me briefly fear that they’d found a way to replace this glorious mechanism. Thankfully not. In fact, they’re going to shoot more droplets, more often!

So much more fun than LEDs.

Re: ASML unveils EUV light source advance that could yield 50% more chips by 2030

#68
post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or this video, which came out before Veritasium's https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B2482h_TNwg

https://youtu.be/NGFhc8R_uO4 Or this presentation which came out way long ago.

"I didn't want my name associated with this on the internet"

Re: ASML unveils EUV light source advance that could yield 50% more chips by 2030

#69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://youtu.be/NGFhc8R_uO4 Or this presentation which came out way long ago.

"I didn't want my name associated with this on the internet"

I didn’t, still don’t, but that’s a lost cause.

I’ll note that this video is way out of date…both in content and my skills as a speaker :P

Re: ASML unveils EUV light source advance that could yield 50% more chips by 2030

#70
post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah it's an interesting angle in the article. The EUV light source technology is completely designed, developed, and manufactured by Cymer in California, which is a US company that ASML acquired in 2013. If export control agreements were not in place then ASML would have never been permitted to acquire Cymer. And if they are not enforced then the US would almost certainly require ASML to sell Cymer back to US owners…

There is much more in an ASML machine, besides the UV source. So the ASML machines combine technologies developed in various places, not only in USA, even if the UV source is indeed a critical component. While an ASML machine would not work without the UV source, it would also not work without many other critical optical and mechanical components. If it were so easy to make a lithography machine when you have a UV so…

While this is all true, I think it should be emphasized that the EUV source and supporting it with optics (Zeiss) and other machinery is the primary engineering effort around the development of lithographic systems.

The primary difference between this machine and its predecessor is the degree to which it has been optimized around the specific EUV light source.

Post reply on HN