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Large study finds link between cannabis use in teens and psychosis later

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Re: Large study finds link between cannabis use in teens and psychosis later

#61
post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s not what that person was arguing?

How so? > all legalization frameworks in the US already limit legal age of purchasing possession and consumption to 21 and over, specifically as a form of seeding ground to the opposition This plainly says that legal frameworks limit the age of consumption as a way of ceding ground to the opposition (implicitly the opposition to legalization). So I'm questioning, if there was no opposition to legalization, what would…

The freedom of 18-21 year olds to consume cannabis legally and not be threatened with violence from the state for doing so.

Re: Large study finds link between cannabis use in teens and psychosis later

#62

Marijuana legalization arguments were my first introduction to motivated reasoning. I was pretty inclined to agree that locking up non-violent drug offenders was a net-harm to society. But, the pro-legalization folks would argue patently crazy things: it cures cancer, the smoke isn't bad for you at all, there are no downsides! etc. It seemed obvious to me that you could make a more realistic argument and just stick t…

> But, the pro-legalization folks would argue patently crazy things: it cures cancer, the smoke isn't bad for you at all, there are no downsides! etc. Who seriously claimed that it “cures cancer”? There have been some claims that it helps alleviate nausea associated with chemotherapy, which is quite reasonable and will likely be proved out by evidence over time. Really … who genuinely claimed it “cures” cancer?

I took it as more of an exaggeration of "medical marijuana" - a phrase you could rarely get away from in the 2000s.

Re: Large study finds link between cannabis use in teens and psychosis later

#63
post #6

I used to read forums for schizophrenics (self disorders fascinate me, look the term up if you want to understand schizophrenia), and it was the consensus there that out of all the recreational drugs cannabis caused the greatest deterioration in one's mental state. Those are generally fairly sick people, but I don't think one can just ignore this signal. I personally went catatonic once after consumption, and I'm not…

Problem with recreational marijuana is that it’s so insanely strong. It would be like giving a child 190 proof azeotropic grain alcohol and being shocked that they immediately vomit. I can’t smoke pot - it’s just too strong. I’ll admit to feeling a bit dumber and foggier after a few weeks of ingesting cannabis nightly though. That’s a real thing.

I've heard that the reason why marijuana is so strong is because it was illegal. The sellers wanted to have stronger weed to make it easier to transport; much like how during prohibition, people would prefer to import distilled alcohol, instead of beer.

Re: Large study finds link between cannabis use in teens and psychosis later

#64
post #57

Part of the issue with legal weed is it's much like if all alcohol was sold as minorly different varieties of Everclear at 150+ ABV, and brands primary boast was just how potent and alcoholic their mix is. It doesn't encourage appropriate usage and IIRC many of these cases of psychosis are from consuming high THC products 24/7 for weeks/months/years on end. If anyone is curious, check out brands like Rove, Dompen, Ca…

I use gummies, ~4-5mg THC (ideally with some of the other TH- chemicals in it), deliberately kept my tolerance low so it doesn’t get more expensive (and I almost only use it for sleep, purely “fun” use is maybe a couple days a year). Take in the evening, start an MST3K episode about an hour later, really enjoy the back half of it, go to bed and fall asleep instantly, wake up feeling like a million bucks. Perfect evening.

Re: Large study finds link between cannabis use in teens and psychosis later

#65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am firmly against marijuana legalization. This is partially because of this insanity of the pro-legalization arguments. When I would see friends/family that started smoking regularly become noticeably less intelligent while pro-legalization proponents would argue there are no negative side-effects, or people who were obviously compelled to smoke every day or as often as they could.... like some sort of addiction, w…

I'm curious, do you also think alcohol and tobacco should be banned? I definitely believe that marijuana use can lead to negative consequences, but I still think it is less dangerous than either of those 2 substances.

Yes I do.

Re: Large study finds link between cannabis use in teens and psychosis later

#66
They do not compare to the baseline population correctly. Roughly 1% of all people are susceptible to schizophrenia, and up to around 4% schizophrenia, extreme bipolar, and other conditions that can result in psychotic episodes or extreme outcomes.

Drug use among vulnerable populations increases the risk of psychotic episodes, but does not increase the risk of developing those conditions. There is no difference in the rate of extreme psychological outcomes among drug users and non-drug users, and in fact, this study reinforces that observation - only 4,000 of 460,000 had those negative outcomes. Over the next 20 years, it's extrmeely likely that another 600-1000 will develop schizophrenia, even abstaining from drugs entirely. Drug use can trigger a psychotic episode and result in long term schizophrenia; by the time you turn 45, however, your odds of a schizophrenic break drop to almost 0.

The worst part of drug use and mental health outcomes is that it can rob people of normal years of life, and rarely, result in schizophrenic or other psychotic conditions being triggered when they might never have been. However, this is not just marijuana or other illegal drugs, but alcohol, caffeine, trauma or intense stress, and even chronic health issues can have the same outcome.

This study also fails to account for the confounding fact that people with mental health issues often pursue mind altering drugs in order to self medicate. People with bad conditions in life, especially younger, undergo extreme stress and are exposed to illicit substances much more readily than those in otherwise stable and healthy conditions.

The results and methodology are flawed, and the conclusions being drawn have little to no relationship with reality.

It comes down to susceptibility - genetics and health conditions play into this. Consult a doctor, and if you have risk factors, live your life accordingly.

If you don't have risk factors for schizophrenia, drug use will not suddenly put you at risk of developing it. Marijuana or other recreational drug use will not cause you to have a psychotic episode. If you do have risk factors, then you're twice as likely to have an episode by using drugs or experiencing other triggers than otherwise.

For those who are susceptible, your relative risk of psychotic episodes and mental breakdown double under mairjuana and other substance use.

For those who are not susceptible, your absolute risk of psychotic episodes and mental breakdown remain near 0. Drugs don't induce these conditions (except in the case of extreme stimulant abuse, and possibly extreme psychedelics outcomes, although getting fried by psychedelics isn't really the same thing as psychosis. Lots of high function deadheads survived some truly harrowing levels of substance use and are best characterized as "weird".)

It'd be nice if the media could distinguish between relative and absolute risk rates and communicate the difference effectively. It'd be even nicer if researchers and publishers didn't chase clickbaity results like this and mischaracterize things like relative and absolute risk for profit.

Re: Large study finds link between cannabis use in teens and psychosis later

#67

Marijuana legalization arguments were my first introduction to motivated reasoning. I was pretty inclined to agree that locking up non-violent drug offenders was a net-harm to society. But, the pro-legalization folks would argue patently crazy things: it cures cancer, the smoke isn't bad for you at all, there are no downsides! etc. It seemed obvious to me that you could make a more realistic argument and just stick t…

I am firmly against marijuana legalization. This is partially because of this insanity of the pro-legalization arguments. When I would see friends/family that started smoking regularly become noticeably less intelligent while pro-legalization proponents would argue there are no negative side-effects, or people who were obviously compelled to smoke every day or as often as they could.... like some sort of addiction, w…

I am firmly in favor of legalizing all drugs, except maybe antibiotics where overuse is causing harm for everyone.

The thing is, I 100% agree with your reasons for why it should be outlawed. I just think those are reasons to discourage using it, especially chronically.

However, I wholeheartedly believe the government should not have any say in how anyone lives their life, and treats their own body.

Re: Large study finds link between cannabis use in teens and psychosis later

#68
post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>But, the pro-legalization folks would argue patently crazy things: it cures cancer, the smoke isn't bad for you at all, there are no downsides! etc. Using the most anecdotally crazy people you met to suggest that the pro-legalization movement is crazy, is frankly, crazy. I'm very involved in legalization and I don't know anyone that is for legalization that thinks any of those things, never even heard anyone say suc…

>Using the most anecdotally crazy people you met to suggest that the pro-legalization movement is crazy, is frankly, crazy. This was over 20 years ago, long before "nut-picking" became impossible to avoid. This is what I was hearing from my peers on my college campus. They may have had had extreme views, but this was long before modern social media surfaced only the craziest people for any given position. >Using the…

>Also, I disagree with this characterization. I am not crazy, it was unnecessarily rude to suggest otherwise.

You suggested the legalization movement is "crazy", without context. We are far from it. But you used the craziest shit to paint us as "crazy", so you get what you give.

Your original comment stated:

>"But, the pro-legalization folks would argue patently crazy things:"

Nowhere did you mention your peers, you specifically said "the pro-legalization folks", meaning the whole group, up to the most prominent people. That's the only way we can take your original comment, so if you don't like being called out like this, then be a lot more specific and say it was only your crazy friend group that was crazy, making it very anecdotal and not overly broad.

Re: Large study finds link between cannabis use in teens and psychosis later

#69
post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>But, the pro-legalization folks would argue patently crazy things: it cures cancer, the smoke isn't bad for you at all, there are no downsides! etc. Using the most anecdotally crazy people you met to suggest that the pro-legalization movement is crazy, is frankly, crazy. I'm very involved in legalization and I don't know anyone that is for legalization that thinks any of those things, never even heard anyone say suc…

I don't think you can frame some of these arguments as belonging to a fringe minority. I remember watching an episode of "Penn & Teller's Bullshit"[1](2004) where they featured several pro-legalization advocates. These folks said or implied similar things (it's not bad for you, it helps cancer patients). These were not marginal "crazy" voices. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Penn_%26_Teller:_Bulls...

"it helps cancer patients" is vastly different than "it cures cancer" which is what OP claimed he heard. And yes, it does help cancer patients as well as anyone else in pain. And the smoke is far less harmful than cigarette smoke, it has no additives at all (when grown in a controlled environment without pesticides). And you don't even need to smoke it, it can be ingested in an edible/pill, making most of the arguments against ingesting marijuana completely bogus.

Re: Large study finds link between cannabis use in teens and psychosis later

#70

Marijuana legalization arguments were my first introduction to motivated reasoning. I was pretty inclined to agree that locking up non-violent drug offenders was a net-harm to society. But, the pro-legalization folks would argue patently crazy things: it cures cancer, the smoke isn't bad for you at all, there are no downsides! etc. It seemed obvious to me that you could make a more realistic argument and just stick t…

I am firmly against marijuana legalization. This is partially because of this insanity of the pro-legalization arguments. When I would see friends/family that started smoking regularly become noticeably less intelligent while pro-legalization proponents would argue there are no negative side-effects, or people who were obviously compelled to smoke every day or as often as they could.... like some sort of addiction, w…

Did the people you notice becoming less intelligent ever recover? I'm genuinely interested. My biggest regret in life is early years drug use, smoked my first joint at 13. Mdma 18. Cocaine late tewnties. I personally think marijuana might be worse than mdma but not by much. And cocaine is really bad for cardio vascular system, probably physically worst of all of them that I tried.

I think both mdma and marijuana cause anxiety and they mess with short term memory.

There doesn't seem to be a good answer to protecting kids from drugs. Heavily regulated legalisation might help or it might normalise drug use.

As an aside I personally think alcohol in very moderate use isn't really as harmful as other drugs. And is probably a net benefit for many. Even moderate use of illegal drugs seems to have bad affects on people.

Edit: added my thoughts on alcohol and something on cocaine use.

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