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Tesla has to pay historic $243M judgement over Autopilot crash, judge says

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Re: Tesla has to pay historic $243M judgement over Autopilot crash, judge says

#61

Post by ethmarks »

palmotea wrote: post #42
1970-01-01 wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's legit dashcam video showing Autopilot preventing severe crashes. Go on YouTube instead of balking. Here's a few to get your algorithm working: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A3K410O_9Nc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qy6SplEn4hQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GcfgIltPyOA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tu2N8f3nEYc

> There's legit dashcam video showing Autopilot preventing severe crashes. Go on YouTube instead of balking. Here's a few to get your algorithm working: So? I just watched those. They don't prove anything about "lives [that] have been saved by the autopilot." They all look like scenarios a human driver could handle (and *I, personally have handled situations similar to some of those). If autopilot is saving lives, yo…

I can't speak for Tesla's FSD specifically, but Waymo did a study on the collision rate of their autonomous cars compared to human drivers: https://waymo.com/safety/impact/. They found that Waymos get into about 81% fewer crashes per mile. Compared to a statistical human driver, Waymo prevented around 411 collisions that would have resulted in any injury, and 27 collisions that would have resulted in serious injury or death. It seems like for Waymo specifically, self-driving cars are demonstrably safer than human drivers. Not sure if that generalizes to Tesla FSD, though.

Re: Tesla has to pay historic $243M judgement over Autopilot crash, judge says

#62

Post by jeffbee »

nradov wrote: post #25
dekhn wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When my spouse worked in the area of determining "the value of an individual" (economically, not morally), it was computed as present value lifetime earnings: the cumulative income of the individual, converted back to its current value (using some sort of inflation model). IIRC, the PVLE averaged out to about $1-10M.

You shouldn't be down voted. Regardless of the moral or technical issues involved, there are established formulas used to calculate damages in wrongful death civil suits. Your range is generally correct although certain factors can push it higher. (Punitive damages are a separate issue.)

There are not "established formulas" or, to the extent that they are, the coefficients and exponents are not determined. The parties always argue about the discount rates and whatnot.

Re: Tesla has to pay historic $243M judgement over Autopilot crash, judge says

#63

Post by triceratops »

WalterBright wrote: post #27
palmotea wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's an absurd judgement. > Consider also how many lives have been saved by the autopilot. > Be careful what you wish for. How many? Tell me.

Statistics aren't collected on that. But I've read anecdotes where individuals recounted the autopilot saving them from a severe accident. You can also google "how many lives has tesla autopilot saved?" and the results suggest that the autopilot is safer than human pilots.

That doesn't make any sense. If I, a human, hit the brakes in time and avoid an accident today, then hit someone tomorrow, should I not be held responsible for the second incident?

Re: Tesla has to pay historic $243M judgement over Autopilot crash, judge says

#64

Post by WarmWash »

standardUser wrote: post #10

I'm not clear on what Tesla is doing these days. They've been left in the dust on autonomous driving, they've failed to update their successful car models, and their only new model was a spectacular failure.

Optimus robots!

In 2 years Tesla will be replacing most factory workers with fully autonomous robots that will do most of the work. This will generate trillions in revenue and is totally definitely trust me bro possible.

Expect huge updates on this coming in the near future, soon. Tesla will be the most valuable company on Earth. Get in the stock now.

(cars, solar panels, energy storage, and robotaxis are no longer part of the roadmap because optimus bots will bring in so much money in 2 years definitiely that these things won't matter so don't ask about them or think about them thanks.)

Re: Tesla has to pay historic $243M judgement over Autopilot crash, judge says

#65

Post by mmooss »

robotnikman wrote: post #58

Will this have any effect on other companies developing self driving tech? It sets a very high precedent for fines, and may discourage companies from further working on such tech.

That's an old argument by corporations against liability. Should they not be fully liable?

It should discourage them from making unsafe products. If it's not economical for them to make safe products, it's good that they go bankrupt and the economic resources - talent, money - go to someone else. Bankruptcy and business failure are just as fundamental to capitalism as profit.

Re: Tesla has to pay historic $243M judgement over Autopilot crash, judge says

#66

Post by madsmith »

maxdo wrote: post #56

I'm so lost. The guy decided to pick up the phone from the floor while driving the car at high speed. 1. It could be ANY car with similar at that time auto steer capabilities. 2. Why the hate , because of some false promise ? Because as of today same car would save the guy in exact same situation, because FSD now handles red lights perfectly. Far better and safer vs ANY other tech included in the avg car price of sam…

Not sure if it’s using the same FSD decision matrix but my model S chimed at me to drive into the intersection while sitting at a red light Last night with absolutely zero possibility it saw a green light anywhere in the intersection.

Perfectly isn’t a descriptor I would use. But this is just anecdotal.

Re: Tesla has to pay historic $243M judgement over Autopilot crash, judge says

#67

Post by nitinreddy88 »

jrjeksjd8d wrote: post #47
tass wrote: post #40

I’m not usually an apologist, and I’d agree with this judgement if the car was left to its own devices, but the driver of the car held his foot on the accelerator which is why it blew through those stop signs and lights. In regards to the autopilot branding, would a reasonable person expect a plane on autopilot to fly safely if the pilot suddenly took over and pointed it at the ground?

The average person does not know how to fly a plane or what a plane autopilot does. It's a ridiculous superficial comparison. Planes have professional pilots who understand the capabilities and limits of aviation autopilot technology. Tesla has had it both ways for ages - their stock price was based on "self-driving cars" and their liability was based on "asterisk asterisk the car cannot drive itself".

According to your analogy. Certified pilot = Certified driving license holder. Its not like Tesla is advertising non driving license or in eligible person can drive using Autopilot. I wonder how can you even justify your statement

Re: Tesla has to pay historic $243M judgement over Autopilot crash, judge says

#68

Post by madeofpalk »

breakyerself wrote: post #22
dolphinscorpion wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Their stock would crash to $10 without the hype machine

It will be zero if they keep doing the same shit

Will it actually? Has the market sent any signal that they won’t tolerate Musk?

You’re a lot more optimistic about this than I am.

Re: Tesla has to pay historic $243M judgement over Autopilot crash, judge says

#69

Post by beering »

Retric wrote: post #53
atonse wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I remember having this argument with a friend. My argument was that the idea that the name Autopilot is misleading comes not from Tesla naming it wrong, it comes from what most people think "Autopilots" on an aircraft do. (And that is probably good enough to argue in court, that it doesn't matter what's factually correct, it matters what people understand based on their knowledge) Autopilot on a Tesla historically di…

Autopilots do a lot more than that because flying an aircraft safely is a lot more complicated than turning a steering wheel left and right and accelerating or breaking. Tesla’s Autopilot being unable to swap from one road to another makes is way less capable than a decades old civilian autopilots which will get you to any arbitrary location as long as you have fuel. Calling the current FSD Autopilot would be oversta…

Doesn’t basic airplane autopilot just maintain flight level, speed, and heading? What are some other things it can do?

Re: Tesla has to pay historic $243M judgement over Autopilot crash, judge says

#70

Post by WarmWash »

Almondsetat wrote: post #37
standardUser wrote: post #10

I'm not clear on what Tesla is doing these days. They've been left in the dust on autonomous driving, they've failed to update their successful car models, and their only new model was a spectacular failure.

By which metrics has Tesla been left in the dust wrt autonomous driving? Right now they are the only brand where you can buy a car and have it do basically 90% (or sometimes 100%) of your daily driving. Sure, it's supervised, but the alternatives are literally extremely geogated taxis

Tesla has a level 3 system that it's willing to gamble on not needing intervention for a handful of miles for a handful of Tesla fanboys. It's very telling that their "level 4" robotaxis are basically unicorns and only exist (existed? it's not clear they are even available anymore) in a single neighborhood subsection of the level 3 robotaxis full area in Austin.

Waymo on the other hand has a level 4 system, and has for many years, in many cities, with large service areas.

Tesla is unquestionably in the dust here, and the delusional, er, faithful are holding out for this mythical switch flip where Elon snaps his fingers and every Tesla turns into a level 4 robotaxi (despite the compute power in these cars being on the level of a GTX 5090, and the robotaxis having custom hardware loadouts)

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