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Tailscale Peer Relays is now generally available

tailscale.com

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Re: Tailscale Peer Relays is now generally available

#61

Post by newsoftheday »

dec0dedab0de wrote: post #46
behnamoh wrote: post #3

How does Tailscale make money? I really like their service but I'm worried about a rug pull in the future. Has anyone tried alternative FOSS solutions? Also, sometimes it seems like I get rate limited on Tailscale. Has anyone had that experience? This usually happens with multiple SSH connections at the same time.

Wouldn't the FOSS alternative be to simply use wireguard?

I do, I use a VPS (at OCI free) to host Wireguard. My home systems (running my production web sites and email) are on my VPN and mine and my wife's phones. I hand configured it all but it wasn't difficult for me.

Re: Tailscale Peer Relays is now generally available

#62

Post by allthetime »

behnamoh wrote: post #3

How does Tailscale make money? I really like their service but I'm worried about a rug pull in the future. Has anyone tried alternative FOSS solutions? Also, sometimes it seems like I get rate limited on Tailscale. Has anyone had that experience? This usually happens with multiple SSH connections at the same time.

Facilitating peer to peer connections is cheap.

Just like cloudflare, a healthy free offering makes lots of happy/loyal developer users. Some of those users have business needs / use for the paid features and support and will convince their managers to buy in.

Re: Tailscale Peer Relays is now generally available

#63

Post by apenwarr »

shj2105 wrote: post #53

I’m so confused. What is the difference between a peer relay and a DERP server that is self hosted?

(Tailscale founder here) Two main differences: first, every DERP server used by your tailnet must be accessible by every node on your tailnet at all times, otherwise you get hard-to-debug netsplits. That's a very high bar to maintain so we've historically recommended you don't try. In contrast, peer relays are "if a given pair of nodes can connect through any of the relays, go for it" so deploying one is always a performance and reliability improvement.

Secondly, peer relays support UDP while DERP is TCP-only. That would be fixable by simply improving the DERP protocol, but as we explored that option, we decided to implement the Peer Relay layer instead as a more complete solution.

Re: Tailscale Peer Relays is now generally available

#65

Post by erikpukinskis »

eleventyseven wrote: post #45
riknos314 wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Tl;Dr here is that the cost to them of operating the free tier is lower than what they estimate their Customer Acquisition Cost would be without a free tier, so the free tier generates better leads/conversions to their paid products at a lower cost than traditional sales and marketing. As long as these economics continue to hold they'd be stupid to discontinue the free tier.

But it isn't 'economics' as there is no actual data or science here, just a wild guess about what customer acquisition might currently cost. All it takes to rug pull is some exec speculating that 'the economics' have changed.

Any mature SaaS company will have exact measurements of acquisition costs. This is advertising, sales staff, etc.

This is one the the most fundamental components of SaaS accounting, it’s absolutely not a “wild guess”.

Re: Tailscale Peer Relays is now generally available

#66

Post by ChrisClark »

a_wild_dandan wrote: post #44
adithyassekhar wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That was it, ok now I feel stupid.

You’re not stupid. That’s terrible UX. The button is completely disconnected from its modal, and is placed in a bizarre/nonstandard location.

It's placed like one of those chat services on sites. Which we've been trained to ignore.

Re: Tailscale Peer Relays is now generally available

#67

Post by shj2105 »

kabirx wrote: post #33
aborsy wrote: post #13

Is peer relay essentially a custom relay which was previously available, except now it’s one command? So it runs a STUN server or similar, for discovery and relaying.

Peer relays are a bit different from our previously available Custom DERP servers. While the custom DERPs do relay traffic, they also require a bunch of configuration and management for their other jobs and they open up availability concerns that are pretty tough for our average customer. Conversely Peer Relays are built on top of the shoulders of DERP. For example, they don't need to do peer discovery set connection…

I’m so confused. What is the difference between a peer relay and a DERP server that is self hosted?

The issue I have is I’m trying to connect two devices where one is behind a CGNAT that always causes the connection to be relayed even though the other one is not behind a cgnat with proper port forwarding. Would a peer relay solve this but is it like a DERp where I have to host it on a VPS separate from my existing two networks or is this something different where I can host the peer relay on the network not behind a CGNAT and somehow it will link the two networks through it?

Re: Tailscale Peer Relays is now generally available

#68

Post by shj2105 »

apenwarr wrote: post #63
shj2105 wrote: post #53

I’m so confused. What is the difference between a peer relay and a DERP server that is self hosted?

(Tailscale founder here) Two main differences: first, every DERP server used by your tailnet must be accessible by every node on your tailnet at all times, otherwise you get hard-to-debug netsplits. That's a very high bar to maintain so we've historically recommended you don't try. In contrast, peer relays are "if a given pair of nodes can connect through any of the relays, go for it" so deploying one is always a per…

Hmm got it not sure I entirely understand. The issue I have is I’m trying to connect two devices where one is behind a hard CGNAT that always causes the connection to be relayed even though the other one is not behind a cgnat with proper port forwarding. Would a peer relay solve this but is it like a DERP where I have to host it on a VPS separate from my existing two networks or is this something different where I can host the peer relay on the same network not behind a CGNAT and somehow it will link the two networks through it?

Re: Tailscale Peer Relays is now generally available

#69

Post by kwakubiney »

apenwarr wrote: post #63
shj2105 wrote: post #53

I’m so confused. What is the difference between a peer relay and a DERP server that is self hosted?

(Tailscale founder here) Two main differences: first, every DERP server used by your tailnet must be accessible by every node on your tailnet at all times, otherwise you get hard-to-debug netsplits. That's a very high bar to maintain so we've historically recommended you don't try. In contrast, peer relays are "if a given pair of nodes can connect through any of the relays, go for it" so deploying one is always a per…

> every DERP server used by your tailnet must be accessible by every node on your tailnet at all times, otherwise you get hard-to-debug netsplits.

What would allow a given pair of nodes access a peer relay? Isn’t the peer relay by default also accessible by every node on the tailnet since it’s in the tailnet as well?

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