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11.8M EU citizens pay taxes to governments they cannot vote for

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Re: 11.8M EU citizens pay taxes to governments they cannot vote for

#61

Post by dfxm12 »

I don't know if paying taxes is a good prerequisite for voting. People travel and pay taxes to a lot of governments along the way. People from out of country may own vacation houses somewhere which represent a lot of property taxes, but are only there a few months out of the year. Should they get a vote? Probably not.

That said, there absolutely should be reasonable processes to allow you to vote in the country you live in. "Obtaining citizenship" sounds reasonable, but of course, not every country has reasonable way to obtain citizenship. The EU voting procedure sounds really onerous.

Re: 11.8M EU citizens pay taxes to governments they cannot vote for

#62

Post by ahtihn »

deanc wrote: post #54
dotancohen wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For the same reason that married couples enjoy privileges that dating couples do not. The long term commitment and investment in a partner indicate and confer interest in long term stability and development.

So a permanent resident who has lived in a country, for say, 10 years? You don't think they're committed at that point and should have a right to vote on the society they are contributing to?

Is there any country in Europe where you can't naturalize after 10 years? Maybe some micro state?

My point is, if you're not willing to go through the naturalisation process when you're eligible, what's the problem?

Re: 11.8M EU citizens pay taxes to governments they cannot vote for

#63

Post by dariosalvi78 »

mrweasel wrote: post #22

Note that they can vote in local election (municipal and regional) and for the EU parliament, the article does mention this, but it is a bit hidden. I think that Brexit illustrates exactly why you need to be a citizen for elections of that type. It seems unfair to let the large number of other European living in the UK have influence on whether or not the UK was to stay, as they are still guests. Same for government…

there should be a uniform system, something like that if you have lived in one country and have paid taxes there (fiscal residency) for more than X years you should be able to vote local elections.

A EU citizen living in the UK for long enough, and with a plan to stay, should have a say on the decisions of that country.

Yes, there is citizenship, but rules are all different and are made every more complicated as we speak (I like in Sweden, where the case is clear).

Re: 11.8M EU citizens pay taxes to governments they cannot vote for

#64

Post by mantas »

deanc wrote: post #54
dotancohen wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For the same reason that married couples enjoy privileges that dating couples do not. The long term commitment and investment in a partner indicate and confer interest in long term stability and development.

So a permanent resident who has lived in a country, for say, 10 years? You don't think they're committed at that point and should have a right to vote on the society they are contributing to?

Then apply for citizenship, take language and, usually, constitution exam and get the citizenship.

If somebody doesn’t care enough to prove they know the basics of the language and legal system in the country… Maybe they shouldn’t have voting privilege either?

Re: 11.8M EU citizens pay taxes to governments they cannot vote for

#65

Post by jeroenhd »

watwut wrote: post #16

Then again, the author can vote where he does not pay taxes - his country of origin. He can also ask for dutch citizenship

Despite being more accessible to EU migrants, there is more to gaining Dutch citizenship than just "asking". One needs to live in the Netherlands for five years (with limits on i.e. long holidays) to qualify and even then it takes months just to take the tests necessary, provided they can speak the language at all, which isn't a given in certain expat circles. Plus, they'd need to give up on their birth nationality.

It's not an impossible challenge to overcome and compared to what 99% of the world's population needs to go through for the same privilege it's a piece of cake for the author to get done, but it's not just a matter of paperwork.

Re: 11.8M EU citizens pay taxes to governments they cannot vote for

#66

Post by light_hue_1 »

rmah wrote: post #47
light_hue_1 wrote: post #5

85% of Americans pay taxes to a federal government that they cannot vote for. My vote is totally irrelevant. I've moved 3 states in my life. Never once has it mattered because of how we vote. My state will be blue. My congressional district will be blue. I might as well do nothing. Thankfully I'm a dual citizen with Canada so my vote has mattered there at least part of the time. So this isn't anything special. I'd sa…

Your statement doesn't make sense to me, perhaps you could clarify it? Did you mean that 85% of the population didn't vote for the current leader of the executive branch? If so then perhaps "that 85% [...] did not vote for" might be more appropriate. Or were your referring to the electoral college used to elect the POTUS? For the first, 100% of citizens cannot vote for the federal government representatives (children…

It's not misleading. I have no idea why people are voting this down. It's just a simple fact.

We have 3 parts of the federal government we can vote for: executive, senate, and house. Yet, the vast majority of people reading this have never cast a vote that mattered in any of those. I certainly have not.

Most states are not competitive when it comes to electoral votes. It doesn't matter if 100% of MA or CA comes out. Whoever is blue-colored will win those EVs. Beyond that, any other vote is worthless and won't change the outcome.

Most states are not competitive when it comes to the senate. Who wins in most races is predetermined by their color affiliation.

Most house races are the same. Many house races don't even have any meaningful opposition because everyone knows who will win.

It's even worse at the local level. Depending on the type of position 60-90% of races are uncontested.

Of course people don't turn out. For 85+% of people it doesn't matter.

> about 1/2 of citizens who are eligible to vote do not

I'm part that majority. No matter how many of me show up even if it was an unlimited number of people, there is literally nothing my vote can do to change the outcome. So yeah. Why waste the time pretending we're in a democracy?

We're in a rule by a tiny minority.

Re: 11.8M EU citizens pay taxes to governments they cannot vote for

#67

Post by dariosalvi78 »

jeroenhd wrote: post #48

If you're not a citizen, you can't vote for the national government. The solution: become a citizen. If you've lived somewhere long enough to lose track of your home country (legally at least), getting citizenship shouldn't be all that hard. The voting pass handed to the author to vote on someone else's behalf clearly states the requirements. A Dutch passport, ID, or driver's license is required. Polling booths are r…

but rules for citizenship are all different and are being made harder and harder because, well, that's what sells today. Also some countries (cough, Germany, cough) have incredibly stupid rules where you have to give up your own citizenship in order to get a new one.

Re: 11.8M EU citizens pay taxes to governments they cannot vote for

#68

Post by maccard »

bhickey wrote: post #50
maccard wrote: post #12

I’m an Irish citizen who lives in the UK. I’m entitled to vote for the upper house in Ireland (Seanad) and in both Uk and Scottish general elections due to our “special arrangement”. I have no plans to apply for citizenship, nor to leave the UK. Honestly, it’s an incredibly privileged thing to be able to do and I think of it every time I vote. I am an ardent supporter of free movement of people. I genuinely think tha…

> Without that distinction, what is the difference between a long term resident and a citizen? You fall into an edge case. Irish citizens have special status in the UK as a result of the countries' shared history. In this particular case the biggest difference is that you can't get a UK passport as an Irish citizen.

I’m acutely aware I’m an edge case - I hoped I made it clear above that I am cognisant of it and that I think of it every time I exercise that privilege

> in this particular case the biggest difference is that you can’t get a UK passport as an Irish citizen.

Sure, but I’ve also been here long enough to naturalise - it’s a decision for me, not something I need to do anything more to be eligible for.

Re: 11.8M EU citizens pay taxes to governments they cannot vote for

#69

Post by maccard »

deanc wrote: post #54
dotancohen wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For the same reason that married couples enjoy privileges that dating couples do not. The long term commitment and investment in a partner indicate and confer interest in long term stability and development.

So a permanent resident who has lived in a country, for say, 10 years? You don't think they're committed at that point and should have a right to vote on the society they are contributing to?

To throw it back at you- should a couple who have been together for 10 years be afforded the same rights as a married couple?

> you don’t think they’re committed at that point and should have a right to vote in the society they are contributing to

Honestly - no, I don’t. I think that voting in a GE is a huge privilege, and it should require an explicit declaration and an acceptance from the country they are part of.

Re: 11.8M EU citizens pay taxes to governments they cannot vote for

#70

Post by jeroenhd »

repelsteeltje wrote: post #58
jeroenhd wrote: post #48

If you're not a citizen, you can't vote for the national government. The solution: become a citizen. If you've lived somewhere long enough to lose track of your home country (legally at least), getting citizenship shouldn't be all that hard. The voting pass handed to the author to vote on someone else's behalf clearly states the requirements. A Dutch passport, ID, or driver's license is required. Polling booths are r…

> Polling booths are run by volunteers and they have hard enough of a time already checking the validity of Dutch ID, adding 27 other forms of ID will only make it easier to bypass the electoral protections we have. Not sure about this one. For municipal elections in the Netherlands, you need to live in a particular municipal to vote. That means: even non-eu expats are eligible. I have had colleagues with UK, US and…

They can definitely vote in most local Dutch elections, though that ability differs per EU member state. As long as you have a valid registration with the municipality, you're eligible.

The example given wasn't about casting their own vote, though, but voting for someone else by proxy (volmacht). For that, you need to take someone else's voting pass, a copy of their ID (may be expired up to a certain amount of years), and a form of your own, valid, Dutch identification.

That last part is where it went wrong: they didn't have valid Dutch ID so the vote by proxy was rejected.

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