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WiFi could become an invisible mass surveillance system

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Re: WiFi could become an invisible mass surveillance system

#61

Post by ghostly_s »

mhitza wrote: post #15
palmotea wrote: post #5

> The method takes advantage of normal network communication between connected devices and the router. These devices regularly send feedback signals within the network, known as beamforming feedback information (BFI), which are transmitted without encryption and can be read by anyone within range. > By collecting this data, images of people can be generated from multiple perspectives, allowing individuals to be ident…

From the paper linked by jbotz > The results for CSI can also be found in Figure 3. We find that we can identify individuals based on their normal walking style using CSI with high accuracy, here 82.4% ± 0.62. If you're a person of interest you could be monitored, your walking pattern internalized in the model then followed through buildings. That's my intuition at practical applications, and the level of detail.

They tested correlation between different perspectives (same scene and AP even) later in the paper and achieved an accuracy of 0%. Not to discount other methods being able to achieve that.

Re: WiFi could become an invisible mass surveillance system

#63

Post by ghostly_s »

oasisbob wrote: post #59
avidiax wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't feel that this article is a fair summary of the paper. And the title is just clickbait. The paper says, in a somewhat contrived scenario, with dozens of labelled walkthroughs per person, they can identify that person from their gait based on CSI and other WiFi information. This is a long way from identifying one person in thousands or tens of thousands, being able to transfer identifying patterns among statio…

Indeed. I'm confused by this line from the article > a study with 197 participants, the team could infer the identity of persons with almost 100% accuracy – independently of the perspective or their gait. The paper seems to make it clear that the technique still depends on gait analysis, but claims it's more robust against gait variations.

The paper also makes clear they had no success correlating across different perspectives- welcome to science reporting.

Re: WiFi could become an invisible mass surveillance system

#64

Post by kittikitti »

Beamforming information is utilized for creating this surveillance. There are also a lack of configurations in common routers to turn off BFI. The BFI information is available to any WiFi snooping and can easily be used to detect presence. You just need to read the BFI data (its plaintext) and if it changes, you can track wherever the smartphone the beam is now pointing towards. Detecting exactly who is another feature but in general, WiFi technologies are insecure and easily available as surveillance devices.

Re: WiFi could become an invisible mass surveillance system

#65

Post by bradyd »

alexpotato wrote: post #23

Not sure how many people are aware that the newer Alexa devices have "presence detection" that uses ultrasound so they can detect when people are nearby. [0] Heck, even Ecobee remote temperature sensors can do this. Reminds me of the story about how the Google Nest smoke detector had a microphone in it. [1] 0 - https://www.amazon.com/b?node=23435461011&tag=googhydr-20&hv... 1- https://www.reddit.com/r/privacy/comment…

The Nest smoke detector microphone was never really secret. It was part of the monthly self test to determine if the alarm was working. It would send you a notification telling you it was going to sound the alarm and that it would be listening for the sound to confirm it was working.

It was listed in the features for the 2nd gen units. https://support.google.com/googlenest/answer/9229922#zippy=%...

Edit: That article isn't about the Nest Protect (smoke detector), it's about the Nest Secure, an alarm system.

Re: WiFi could become an invisible mass surveillance system

#66

Post by kccqzy »

barrystaes wrote: post #50

Android devices already know exactly where they are even with GPS disabled, because they sniff the nearby WIFI networks and then ask Google where they are. QED Google knows already, all combined is mass metadata surveillance already provided to those that tap into it. Any sub-meter precision or presence detection does not really matter, if these companies have all your other questions, queries, messages, calendars, b…

First this is not just Android. Apple does the same thing. You can buy an iPad which physically does not have any GPS hardware and it can reasonably tell you where you are. Personally I first learned of this feature when I bought a second-generation iPad, so it’s been there a while ago.

Second, it is a logical leap to assume Google knows everything already. They could for example build this nearby Wi-Fi based location querying API with privacy in mind, by purposefully making it anonymous without associating it with your account, going through relays (such as Oblivious HTTP), use various private set intersection techniques instead. It is tired and lazy to argue that just because some Big Tech has the capability of doing something bad therefore they must already be doing it.

Re: WiFi could become an invisible mass surveillance system

#67

Post by NoImmatureAdHom »

barrystaes wrote: post #50

Android devices already know exactly where they are even with GPS disabled, because they sniff the nearby WIFI networks and then ask Google where they are. QED Google knows already, all combined is mass metadata surveillance already provided to those that tap into it. Any sub-meter precision or presence detection does not really matter, if these companies have all your other questions, queries, messages, calendars, b…

This is a defeatist attitude.

Run grapheneos!

Re: WiFi could become an invisible mass surveillance system

#68

Post by IshKebab »

sponaugle wrote: post #26

This is a VERY controlled environment - and they used 20 passes of each person walking with direct knowledge of each person to train for identity. They did no tests with multiple people walking at the same time, or with any other external moving distortion effects (doors opening, etc) . This is very far from actual 'identification' of people in real public settings - and no doubt the cell phone everyone is carrying w…

Yeah this is one of those "cool demo" research results that is completely impractical in the real world that is sold (probably by university PR departments) as an actual viable technique that might have real-world implications.

We've seen it before with things like taking photos around corners.

And no, it isn't like the Wright flyer and a bit crap now but in 40 years we have jet planes. This will never get significantly better.

Re: WiFi could become an invisible mass surveillance system

#70

Post by [deleted] »

notepad0x90 wrote: post #60
sponaugle wrote: post #26

This is a VERY controlled environment - and they used 20 passes of each person walking with direct knowledge of each person to train for identity. They did no tests with multiple people walking at the same time, or with any other external moving distortion effects (doors opening, etc) . This is very far from actual 'identification' of people in real public settings - and no doubt the cell phone everyone is carrying w…

Yes, but things could be refined. With more resources and research thrown at it, it could become more versatile, that's why the title of the post says "could". And chances are, there are private and government entities already doing this. Research like this has been coming out for at least a decade now. Even Xfinity has motion detection in homes using this technique now: https://www.xfinity.com/hub/smart-home/wifi-mo…

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