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Linux From Scratch ends SysVinit support

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Re: Linux From Scratch ends SysVinit support

#61

Post by Fwirt »

antonyh wrote: post #27

All I want is init scripts and X11, but the horizons are shrinking. I've already compromised with systemd, and I don't like it. I see BSD in my future, or at least a linux distro from the list here https://nosystemd.org/ - probably Gentoo. Nothing to stop me, absolutely nothing at all. I just need a few days free to backup/wipe/reinstall/reconfigure/restore_data and I'll be good. Better make that a few weeks. Maybe o…

Try Alpine? It's not designed to be a "desktop" OS but it functions well as one. I find it easy enough to wrap my head around the whole thing, and it uses OpenRC by default.

Re: Linux From Scratch ends SysVinit support

#62

Post by its_ubuntu2 »

cf100clunk wrote: post #60
its_ubuntu2 wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

I see this was your first HN contribution and you didn't post any links, so maybe that's what they were thinking?

Links? To what? "First contribution"? I'm not new around here.

(If anyone is wondering what he's referring to--I said that I was mystified why my post would be immediately downvoted.)

Let's try again, much shorter this time:

I am releasing a distro soon that is right up your alley. SEE MY PROFILE for info.

Re: Linux From Scratch ends SysVinit support

#63

Post by nine_k »

cf100clunk wrote: post #22
eikenberry wrote: post #17

SysV init was the overengineered cousin to BSD init and I never liked it. Easily my least favorite of all init systems I've worked with over the last 30 years. On the flip side, daemontools or maybe runit were my favorites. Lots of good options for init/supervision tooling over the years and SysV was not among them.

If we look on LFS for its academic merit, I'm saddened that key historical elements of Unix/Linux design are being left behind, much like closing down a wing of a laboratory or museum and telling students that they'll need to whip up their own material to fill in those gaps.

Certain things should only be taught as a warning. SysV init is one of them.

Re: Linux From Scratch ends SysVinit support

#64

Post by bryanlarsen »

tokyobreakfast wrote: post #40
antonyh wrote: post #27

All I want is init scripts and X11, but the horizons are shrinking. I've already compromised with systemd, and I don't like it. I see BSD in my future, or at least a linux distro from the list here https://nosystemd.org/ - probably Gentoo. Nothing to stop me, absolutely nothing at all. I just need a few days free to backup/wipe/reinstall/reconfigure/restore_data and I'll be good. Better make that a few weeks. Maybe o…

I wonder if the impetus behind the (terrible) monolithic design of systemd was to force standardization across distros. The choice was more political than technical. If different choices were available for init, DNS resolver, service control manager, volume manager, etc... we would adversely contribute to the schizo distro landscape the people holding the money bags are actively trying to get away from. With systemd…

systemd is not a monolith, and distros make different choices on what portions of systemd they which to ship and enable by default.

For example, not all distros ship and use systemd-resolved by default, to choose from your list.

Re: Linux From Scratch ends SysVinit support

#65

Post by cf100clunk »

preisschild wrote: post #41
cf100clunk wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't see how this relates to removing SysVinit support from LFS. Choice is good.

That "choice" still has to be maintained. And why spend effort when you can do the same things + more with systemd?

Clearly there are lots of people who don't want something that does what you say systemd does. Bravo that choice is out there, but what a pity that LFS does not seem to have the resources to test future versions for SysVinit.

Re: Linux From Scratch ends SysVinit support

#66

Post by reppap »

cf100clunk wrote: post #25
PunchyHamster wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

sysv is garbage tho. If unix philosophy is "make it do one thing and do it well", it doesn't do the one thing it is supposed to do well. I dislike overloading systemd with tools that are not related to running services but systemd does the "run services" (and auxiliary stuff like "make sure mount service uses is up before it is started" or "restart it if it dies" and hundred other things that are very service or use-…

I don't see how this relates to removing SysVinit support from LFS. Choice is good.

Are you entitled to the LFS developers time? They build the system they get to make into what they want.

Re: Linux From Scratch ends SysVinit support

#67

Post by cf100clunk »

onraglanroad wrote: post #56
cf100clunk wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If we look on LFS for its academic merit, I'm saddened that key historical elements of Unix/Linux design are being left behind, much like closing down a wing of a laboratory or museum and telling students that they'll need to whip up their own material to fill in those gaps.

Yes, it's like asking students to actually produce something themselves. What a horrific thought.

If the students have been well trained, they should be trusted to experiment. If the course curriculum demands that they produce something themselves yet does not educate them on doing so, that's horrific.

Re: Linux From Scratch ends SysVinit support

#68

Post by cf100clunk »

nine_k wrote: post #63
cf100clunk wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If we look on LFS for its academic merit, I'm saddened that key historical elements of Unix/Linux design are being left behind, much like closing down a wing of a laboratory or museum and telling students that they'll need to whip up their own material to fill in those gaps.

Certain things should only be taught as a warning. SysV init is one of them.

Back in the day, system run levels were seen as desirable. SysVinit went in on that concept to the max. So, if the concept of run levels isn't clear to the student beforehand, the init system for making it happen would therefore be mystifying and maybe even inscrutible.

Re: Linux From Scratch ends SysVinit support

#69

Post by wiml »

nialv7 wrote: post #54
smartmic wrote: post #8

It's a pity. It's also a step back from valuing the Unix philosophy, which has its merits, especially for those with a "learning the system from scratch" mindset. Sorry, but I have no sympathy for systemd.

If you want to learn the system from scratch, the best way will be writing your own little init system from scratch, so you can understand how the boot sequence works. And as you make use of more and more of the advanced features of Linux, your init system will get more and more complex, and will start to resemble systemd. If you only learn about sysvinit and stop there, you are missing large parts of how a modern Li…

> and will start to resemble systemd

That's the point on which people differ. Even if we take as given that rc/svinit/runit/etc is not good enough (and I don't think that's been established), there are lots of directions you can go from there, with systemd just one of them.

Re: Linux From Scratch ends SysVinit support

#70

Post by josteink »

antonyh wrote: post #27

All I want is init scripts and X11, but the horizons are shrinking. I've already compromised with systemd, and I don't like it. I see BSD in my future, or at least a linux distro from the list here https://nosystemd.org/ - probably Gentoo. Nothing to stop me, absolutely nothing at all. I just need a few days free to backup/wipe/reinstall/reconfigure/restore_data and I'll be good. Better make that a few weeks. Maybe o…

> All I want is init scripts and X11, but the horizons are shrinking. I've already compromised with systemd, and I don't like it. I see BSD in my future

Freedesktop wants to kill X11 and are working continuously on that, to the point if rejecting patches and banning developers.

Popular desktop environments are increasingly depending on Linux-only things. KDE has officially removed support for FreeBSD in Plasma login manager (because of logind dependency).

Gnome 50 plans to obsolete X11 completely.

If you want that simple, bright future of yours, you’ll have to fight/work for it.

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