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We (As a Society) Peaked in the 90s

chris.pagecord.com

61–70 of 131 posts

Re: We (As a Society) Peaked in the 90s

#61
As Douglas Adams and xkcd #1227 have pointed out, the older generations have complained about this sort of thing since Plato. However, I do not believe this observation settles the matter, because it does not seriously contend with the null hypothesis: that we really have been steadily enshittifying the human experience since Plato.

Who has the right of it? Do the new generations simply not know what they are missing. Or is there something in human nature that makes us unavoidably crotchety as we get older and, thus, not to be taken too seriously? In my opinion, it is simply an open mystery.

On the one hand, many tangible, measurable things have improved over the last 2000 years, or, indeed, since the 90's. Steven Pinker has made this point somewhat convincingly by looking at unambiguously positive things like reduced infant mortality.

On the other hand, every single generation can give detailed accounts of how much more real and alive and authentic the world was a few decades ago. The accounts have similarities across the generations, but they are also rooted in specifics. To argue that we're all mis-remembering or failing to appreciate what the new decade has to offer is to insist on a rather fantastic level of self-doubt. If our entire lived experience is this untrustworthy, it kind of makes it impossible to rule on anything - good OR bad. Why should we default to trusting the younger generation?

I think the surrounding technological context of our age has brought this long-simmering matter to a boil. Now that our electronic communication is so sophisticated that we can essentially build "anything", it starts to re-focus our attention from "CAN we build it" to "SHOULD we build it". This question about digital society is complementary to the broader, long-standing civilizational question. Have the trillions of hours the human race has expended shaping our society resulted in _better_ life, or just life with a deeper tech tree?

One novelty of our time is how certain human enterprises play out at 10x speed in cyberspace. This lets us watch the entire lifecycle as they Rise and Fall, over and over. This lends perspective, and allows patterns to emerge. Indeed, this is exactly how Doctorow came to coin the term enshittification. If there's any truth to the life-really-is-getting-worse theory, you'd want to find some causal mechanism - some constant factor that explains why we've been driving things in the wrong direction so consistently. Digital life lets us see enough trials to start building such an account. You can imagine starting to understand the "physics" of why all human affairs eventually lead to an Eternal September. Wherever brief pockets of goodness pop up, they are like arbitrage opportunities: they tautologically attract more and more people trying to harvest the goodness until it's pulverized - a tragedy of the commons. Perhaps some combination of population growth and the inevitable depletion of Earth's natural resources lead to such a framework.

Whatever you think about it, I mostly just wish people would acknowledge that it is an unresolved debate and treat it as such. It is critical to understanding what it is worth spending our time on, and it is the kernel of many comparatively superficial disagreements (e.g. the red-blue culture war in US politics).

Re: We (As a Society) Peaked in the 90s

#62
post #56
post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is this satire?

We’re quickly entering a new era of energy abundance, without needing to constantly dig up, process, and cart around enormous amounts of oil. And solar has recently gotten cheap enough that people in poorer countries around the world are deploying huge amounts of it. That’s pretty amazing!

What does this have to do with my question?

Re: We (As a Society) Peaked in the 90s

#63

As an old-timer, the biggest difference between now and the 80s and 90s is that in the 80s and 90s entertainment was relatively scarce. An album cost $20, which was a lot in those days. You could get movies, but you had to go to the video store and remember to return them, and the selection was often limited. If you liked some weird band, most record stores didn't have it. In the 80s TV was very limited and you had t…

I've summarized this in some ways as there's nothing weird anymore. Nothing counter-culture. There's this notion some people who grew up in that time have who have become old and cynical which is like "How can anyone who grew up in the 90's be offended by anything. We had South Park!" I was a teenager when The Spirit of Christmas came out, and the great thing about South park is how strange and transgressive it was.…

Rebellion nowadays is living like a sterotyped 1950's family.

Re: We (As a Society) Peaked in the 90s

#64
post #4

A thought I often have - older millennials and younger Gen X have a unique obligation to fix certain parts of society because we are the youngest generation old enough to remember how to operate in and enjoy a world that wasn't A/B tested into a gray, lifeless background hum.

I am 51 and a Gen X. I did my part, I voted for policies to increase the social safety net, universal healthcare, etc.

This is the world that people wanted. I have the Ben Kenobi plan, I’m going to disappear somewhere and when the evil empire comes for me, just give up and die and then it becomes the younger people’s problem.

Re: We (As a Society) Peaked in the 90s

#65

As an old-timer, the biggest difference between now and the 80s and 90s is that in the 80s and 90s entertainment was relatively scarce. An album cost $20, which was a lot in those days. You could get movies, but you had to go to the video store and remember to return them, and the selection was often limited. If you liked some weird band, most record stores didn't have it. In the 80s TV was very limited and you had t…

I was around in the 80’s in the UK and this was a real thing:

https://newsthump.com/2026/01/28/uk-on-verge-of-return-to-he...

Re: We (As a Society) Peaked in the 90s

#66
post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm jealous of my kids since they are so much better off in every way Really? It’s interesting how much I see this take online. I never see people saying this IRL.

Yes of course I am. This is the best possible time quite literally. Barely any conflict. The entire world, including 'poor' countries, are getting richer. Like the world of 2100 is going to be F'ING amazing. We are making our way to a post scarcity world and it's amazing. All the negative news you hear everyday are just distractions from what's actually going on.

I’m optimistic too, but I can’t help wonder if the post scarcity world, like the future, won’t be evenly distributed.

Re: We (As a Society) Peaked in the 90s

#67
post #46

The Internet is to blame! But you could say we peaked before electricity too: - It broke our natural circadian rhythm - It enabled the 24-hr grind - With radios and televisions, people were now staying home for leisure instead of going to parks and public spaces (TV dinners!) - It led to immense pollution Technology really is a double edged sword.

Quality of life has a lot to do with how you choose to spend your time. I know lots of people that have no idea what Reddit is. They’ve never had a Facebook account. Those aren’t happenstances - they are the result of the choice on what they spend their time doing. I’m not surprised people who spend most of their time exposed to the rage bait that fills social media think the world is falling apart. Especially if you…

Something new to grapple with though is that (in the US) we have the most extremely online White House in history. Our highest ranking officials, with their departments, are on social media day in and day out, and make decisions motivated by it.

It's very strange.

Re: We (As a Society) Peaked in the 90s

#69
post #42
post #2

I was hoping this would be more fleshed out as an article, but the sentiment is understandable. Want to throw some of my knowledge of digital music, as you called it out specifically. In the late 90s most digitally arranged music production was relegated to trackers (think Amiga trackers) and sequencing samples and loops, because the storage simply didn't exist. Then that would be committed to tape, sometimes on a 4-…

Tracker music was always a hobbyist thing, with a few exceptions. Not really relevant in the greater music scene. But digitally produced music was of course a huge thing in the 90s. Countless genres of electronic music – techno, trance, house, whatever have you, all of that made on computers. And of course pop was almost all synth – digital synth – just like today.

> Tracker music was always a hobbyist thing

I was specifically talking about end-to-end digital music production being used to "clean up" recordings per the article. Not whatever "scene" you are conjuring.

> Computers helped you make things louder, cleaner, faster.

For people with limited resources (i.e. indie musicians without huge budgets), digital multi-track recording was not democratized until the introduction of low-cost hard disk storage at sufficient capacity to allow digital multi-track recording at home, roughly around 2002~2003.

Of course I'm aware of synthesizers, etc. I was an electronic musician myself during this period, and I lived it. I had the gear racks, ADAT machines, etc.

We did not have the resources as independent musicians to use non-linear digital editing software broadly until storage became cheaper.

Again, a lot of that music was typically done with looping and sample hits arranged on a midi sequencer, similar to trackers, but with distributed infrastructure.

Listen to older KMFDM, for example, the looping really stands out due to the limited storage they had when arranging, they would arrange sample hits and loops as I was talking about above.

Musicians with studio backing and infinite money could afford giant digital productions suites and were using crude versions of Pro Tools by the early '90s, am well aware.

Re: We (As a Society) Peaked in the 90s

#70
post #53
post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's definitely some truth to that but not everything is a generational thing. Eg: Social media is a net negative for kids and teens.

Kids these days can't even play outside by themselves, let alone explore alone or be unsupervised miles from home with no adults like we could when I was a kid in the 90s and 2000s. What else can they do other than use social media? The creeping infantilization of the youth has robbed them of any chance for socializing or fun that exists outside of a screen.

Are you sure it's not the other way around? That all of this is happening because of social media, phones, etc?
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