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Mamdani to kill the NYC AI chatbot caught telling businesses to break the law

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Re: Mamdani to kill the NYC AI chatbot caught telling businesses to break the law

#61

Why did NYC release it in the first place? Did they not QA it? Or was it perhaps one of those cases where they found issues, but the only way to really know for sure that the deleterious impact is significant enough by pushing it to prod?

It’s an LLM. The dirty little secret of LLMs is that they cannot be used for anything important, unless the output is checked by an expert (which typically rather defeats the purpose).

There’s no amount of qa that could save this.

Re: Mamdani to kill the NYC AI chatbot caught telling businesses to break the law

#62
post #46

I always ask this question about these bots: is the literature the training data or is the understanding of literature the training data? Meaning, sure you trained the bot on the current rules and regulations. But does that mean the model weights contain them? Such that really is a guess at legal accuracy? Or is it trained to be a lawyer and understand the docs which sit outside the model? Every time I've asked the a…

> I've noticed a dramatic drop in hallucinations after it had to provide links to its sources. Still not 0, though.

I’ve noticed that Google does a fair job at linking to relevant sources but it’s still fairly common for it to confabulate something that source doesn’t say or even directly contradicts. It seems to hit the underlying inability to reason where if the source covers more than one thing it’s prone to taking an input “X does A while Y does B” and emitting “Y does A” or “X does A and B”. It’s a fascinating failure mode which seems to be insurmountable.

Re: Mamdani to kill the NYC AI chatbot caught telling businesses to break the law

#63
post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The same way you test any system - you find a sampling of test subjects, have them interact with the system and then evaluate those interactions. No system is guaranteed to never fail, it's all about degree of effectiveness and resilience. The thing is (and maybe this is what parent meant by non-determinism, in which case I agree it's a problem), in this brave new technological use-case, the space of possible interac…

Does knowing the system architecture not help you with defining things like happy path vs edge case testing? I guess it's much less applicable for overall system testing, but in "normal" systems you test components separately before you test the whole thing, which is not the case with LLMs. By "non-deterministic" I meant that it can give you different output for the same input. Ask the same question, get a different…

>EDIT: More interestingly, I find an issue, what do I even DO? If it's not related to integrations or your underlying data, the black box just gave nonsensical output. What would I do to resolve it?

Lots of stuff you could do. Adjust the system prompt, add guardrails/filters (catching mistakes and then asking the LLM loop again), improve the RAG (assuming they have one), fine tune (if necessary), etc.

Re: Mamdani to kill the NYC AI chatbot caught telling businesses to break the law

#64
post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Remember that many people are heavily are happy-path biased. They see a good result once and say "that's it, ship it!" I'm sure they QA'd it, but QA was probably "does this give me good results" (almost certainly 'yes' with an LLM), not "does this consistently not give me bad results".

> almost certainly 'yes' with an LLM LLMs can handle search because search is intentionally garbage now and because they can absorb that into their training set. Asking highly specific questions about NYC governance, which can change daily, is almost certainly 'not' going to give you good results with an LLM. The technology is not well suited to this particular problem. Meanwhile if an LLM actually did give you good…

[deleted]

Re: Mamdani to kill the NYC AI chatbot caught telling businesses to break the law

#65

Why did NYC release it in the first place? Did they not QA it? Or was it perhaps one of those cases where they found issues, but the only way to really know for sure that the deleterious impact is significant enough by pushing it to prod?

It was implemented by our scammy, grifting, Republican in a Democratic lawmaker suit former mayor Eric Adams who should probably be in prison but who made a deal with Trump to not be prosecuted.

Re: Mamdani to kill the NYC AI chatbot caught telling businesses to break the law

#66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most AI Chatbots do not rely on their training data, but on the data that is passed to them through RAG. In that sense they are not compressing the data, just searching and rewording it for you.

> and rewording it Using the probabilities encoded in the training data. > In that sense they are not compressing the data You're right. In this case they're decompressing it.

It feels like you're being pedantic, to defend your original claim which was inaccurate.

    User input: Does NYC provide disability benefits? if so, for how long?

    RAG pipeline: 1 result found in Postgres, here's the relevant fragment: "In New York City, disability benefits provide cash assistance to employees who are unable to work due to off-the-job injuries or illnesses, including disabilities from pregnancies. These benefits are typically equal to 50% of the employee's average weekly wage, with a maximum of $170 per week, and are available for up to 26 weeks within a 52-week period."

   LLM scaffolding: "You are a helpful chatbot. Given the question above and the data provided, reply to the user in a kind helpful way".

the LLM here is only "using the probability encoded in the training data" to know that after "Yes, it does" it should output the token "!"

However, it is not "decompressing" its "training data" to write

    the maximum duration, however, is 26 weeks within a 52-week period!
It is just getting this from the data provided at run-time in the prompt, not from training data.
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