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Beowulf's opening "What" is no interjection (2013)

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Re: Beowulf's opening "What" is no interjection (2013)

#61

Beowulf translation is a whole academic field, the translation has been debated ad nauseum for 100s of years, Tolkien had his own translation and opinion, which differed from others. One additional scholar adding his own interpretation doesn't necessarily overturn anything. There is not enough detail in this article to know how compelling the case is or what the counter arguments would be.

> There is not enough detail in this article to know how compelling the case is or what the counter arguments would be. The only real way to make the case compelling would be to discover new Old English texts. So there is enough information; the case is not going to be compelling.

Check out the paper - someone else linked it. It has several examples from Old English and other related languages which support its case. It seems pretty compelling to me.

The fact that earlier translators had to break up the original sentence and insert an exclamation point after "What" is already a bit suspect. Walkden's interpretation actually makes more sense, when you see examples like "Hwæt stendst þu her wælhreowa deor?", meaning "Why are you standing here, cruel beast?"

This may be a case where early translators over-indexed on e.g. Latin patterns and made a mistake which was then just accepted by subsequent translators.

Re: Beowulf's opening "What" is no interjection (2013)

#62
post #47

Does it matter? Genuine question-- does this (mis)translation change anything

Not really. It does however help drive home the point that such interjections were unlikely to be used by speakers of Nordic languages in order to begin a tale. (On the other hand in Latin and Celtic traditions, interjections were widely used in story-telling, eg. "Ecce!" and "Féach!" respectively). Old English speakers would have been more inclined to used interjections in a responsive context. For example, to the s…

> It does however help drive home the point that such interjections were unlikely to be used by speakers of Nordic languages in order to begin a tale.

Beowulf was written in Old English, which is not a Nordic language.

> ... any of the speech patterns found in languages which developed from Old Norse.

Similarly, Old English didn't develop from Old Norse.

Re: Beowulf's opening "What" is no interjection (2013)

#63
post #53
post #14

I used to use this (still do really) as a technique when starting undergraduate lectures. They’re there, ready to listen, but chatting away and need a moment to focus their attention. *SO* let me tell you further fun facts about carbonyl chemistry… Works. Those Anglo-Saxons knew what they were about.

On the first day of class in undergrad, most professors are handing out the syllabus and talking about class requirements and basically doing zero lecturing. Not my Philosophy 101 prof. The minute the class was scheduled to start, he opened the door and walked into the room saying, "The Greeks had a fantastic project. They were going to catalog all the knowledge in the world." I don't remember the rest of the lecture…

Which Greeks? What project is this?

Re: Beowulf's opening "What" is no interjection (2013)

#64
post #6

You could always read the Maria Dahvana Headley translation that starts with "Bro!": https://www.historytoday.com/archive/review/beowulf-bro "Bro! Tell me we still know how to speak of kings! In the old days, everyone knew what men were: brave, bold, glory-bound. Only stories now, but I’ll sound the Spear-Danes’ song, hoarded for hungry times."

I know it's unconventional, but I thoroughly enjoyed reading that translation. It felt so alive, and other translations have never engaged me in quite the same way.

It was the only version I managed to finish, unless you count "Eaters of the Dead" by Michael Crichton (which is loosely based on it and mashed up with the story of Ahmad ibn Fadlan).

I think it's a good compromise between staying true-ish to the language, and also making it come alive as an epic adventure story.

Re: Beowulf's opening "What" is no interjection (2013)

#65
post #14

I used to use this (still do really) as a technique when starting undergraduate lectures. They’re there, ready to listen, but chatting away and need a moment to focus their attention. *SO* let me tell you further fun facts about carbonyl chemistry… Works. Those Anglo-Saxons knew what they were about.

Maybe good pedagogy, but the point is that's not what the Anglo-Saxons were doing. What they did (in Beowulf, and seemingly most of the time they started their sentences with hwæt) would be more like starting the lecture with: "How fun carbonyl chemistry is!"

Re: Beowulf's opening "What" is no interjection (2013)

#66
post #33

Graham Scheper has a recent video on this topic. He also believes that "Hwaet" is not an interjection, but more like Red Riding Hood's "What big eyes you have!" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5gZKCPk40WI

You seem to have linked the wrong video (yours is about the meaning of the name Beowolf), the right link about Hwaet is: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nMIfHNn9KGs

I watched this video a few days ago after it was randomly recommended by YouTube. Definitely found it very interesting and he has a load of other videos about learning Old English, so I'll be checking out more of them soon.

Re: Beowulf's opening "What" is no interjection (2013)

#67
post #43
post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People are saying that the interjection interpretation is influenced by its use as interjection in Shakespeare’s time. By that time what/hwæt was being used differently than the way it was when Beowulf was authored hundreds of years before.

Nevertheless I do think it is safe to say that such interjections were used, at least on a day-to-day basis. (Bear in mind that relatively few Old English texts survive to this day and almost certainly not many were produced to begin with. Old Norse itself was for the most part a spoken language, unlike Latin for example, and its predecessor which developed in England only started to be written down because of extern…

Those aren't interjections in other Germanic languages, they're called modal particles. Norwegian:

"Det er sant." That is true. "Det er vel sant." That's true, I suppose (resigned). "Det er nok sant." That's true, I suppose (serious). "Det er da sant." That's true, come on.

German also has them, though I'm not confident enough to explain the fine difference between "Das ist wahr" and "Das ist noch war".

English maybe has some remnants of them, but they're rare and probably a bit more archaic. You can say "That is yet true", and the "yet" there doesn't necessarily imply that you think it might not be true in the future. You probably understand what I mean if I say "That is but true" but it sounds very archaic. Usually you have to invoke a full adverb to signify mode in English ("That's actually true")

Re: Beowulf's opening "What" is no interjection (2013)

#68
post #14

I used to use this (still do really) as a technique when starting undergraduate lectures. They’re there, ready to listen, but chatting away and need a moment to focus their attention. *SO* let me tell you further fun facts about carbonyl chemistry… Works. Those Anglo-Saxons knew what they were about.

I'm confused, isn't this the exact usage that TFA is refuting?

> Yet for more than two centuries “hwæt” has been misrepresented as an attention-grabbing latter-day “yo!” designed to capture the interest of its intended Anglo-Saxon audience urging them to sit down and listen up to the exploits of the heroic monster-slayer Beowulf.

Re: Beowulf's opening "What" is no interjection (2013)

#70
post #33

Graham Scheper has a recent video on this topic. He also believes that "Hwaet" is not an interjection, but more like Red Riding Hood's "What big eyes you have!" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5gZKCPk40WI

You seem to have linked the wrong video (yours is about the meaning of the name Beowolf), the right link about Hwaet is: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nMIfHNn9KGs

Is it just me or does this video look AI-generated?
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