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The Walls Are Closing in on Tesla

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Re: The Walls Are Closing in on Tesla

#61

Post by orwin »

tjpnz wrote: post #37
shantara wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thai Cave rescue happened in 2018. It should have already made obvious how completely deranged Musk was to everyone, even if they were not paying close attention before and were dazzled by self-driving cars and Mars colonization promises.

I think that marked a turning point for many. He had been known to say dumb things in the past but that was monumentally stupid own goal. Worse, he was given multiple chances to take a step back but just kept digging.

Yeah, it was mine. That's the moment I thought 'wow that guy is deranged now, he should step back and take some vacations'. Now I realize he was like this from the start, but that was the moment I questioned my hero worship.

Re: The Walls Are Closing in on Tesla

#62

Post by dwb »

rhubarbtree wrote: post #29
WA wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You were duped. Tesla‘s paint it black video is from 2016 and one the first obvious lies. People called Musk out on his BS 10 years ago, but he successfully managed to keep a "genius" imagine in the media up until COVID-19 hit. Media sentiment changed around 2020/2021 to adjust to reality of Musk being a massive fraudster.

Important point here: the discussion is about his character, but you’ve made it about his intellect. I don’t think anyone can doubt that Musk is super smart. I’ve heard silly things like - he doesn’t do anything, it’s all his employees or board or assistant - but reading the history that’s obviously false. It does seem some people can’t cope with the idea that someone is often an asshat is also brilliant. And I’m afr…

I don’t think Musk is super smart. I think he has some skills that account for how he got to his position other than privilege and luck, I think he probably works hard (or at least, harder than me), but I can’t get to “super smart”.

Re: The Walls Are Closing in on Tesla

#63

Post by ben_w »

refurb wrote: post #27
lawn wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not a very good comparison as Tesla has far fewer models than other carmakers.

The number of models doesn’t seem that relevant? If anything it would make Tesla’s numbers all the more impressive being a niche market EV.

As I recall, the original Bondi blue iMac was the best selling model of personal computer at the time. This wasn't because Apple suddenly stopped being the Betamax of the home computer world, it's because there was only one model when everyone else had a full range, and the effect disappeared the moment they came out in multiple colours.

Same deal with Tesla: They have two core models (Y top, 3 next, all else a rounding error), while everyone else has a full range that sales are split across.

Re: The Walls Are Closing in on Tesla

#64

Post by input_sh »

mft_ wrote: post #12
schiffern wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I am still asking myself what the fuck happened? I think the Scott Adams piece the other day[0] described the system dynamics well: "Once you’re sufficiently prominent, politics becomes a separating equilibrium; if you lean even slightly to one side, the other will pile on you so massively and traumatically that it will force you into their opponents’ open arms just for a shred of psychological security." I think B…

I was always confused and intrigued what was going on behind the scenes when Tesla was so obviously and publicly rejected by the Biden administration in that manner. Musk was even then a polarising figure, but given Tesla was arguably more “American” than even the self-proclaimed traditional American car companies, it seemed a weird, self-defeating, perhaps emotional, position for the administration to take.

That 2021 event was very much not about EVs-in-general, but about supporting UAW as a union at a time when a lot of their jobs were about to be disrupted because Biden just signed an EO (14037) that pushed traditional automakers towards making more EVs (target being 40-50% by 2030, but it was non-binding).

So, why were Ford, GM and Stellantis there but Tesla wasn't? Because Tesla was already making EVs only, because none of its workforce is a part of UAW (due to Tesla being anti-union) and because this EO had no impact on Tesla's workforce what so ever. Elon being butthurt about it doesn't change the fact that it would've made zero sense to have Tesla there.

You don't have to take my word for it, Jen Psaki directly addressed this at a press briefing:

> Asked if Tesla being a nonunion company was the reason it wasn’t included Thursday, Psaki replied, “Well, these are the three largest employers of the United Auto Workers, so I’ll let you draw your own conclusions.”

https://edition.cnn.com/2021/08/05/business/tesla-snub-white...

Re: The Walls Are Closing in on Tesla

#65

Post by ben_w »

shantara wrote: post #25
iammjm wrote: post #5

I used to really like and admire Musk. You could say I was a fanboy. I am still asking myself what the fuck happened? Was he faking his true character all this time and managed to dupe me? Did he suffer some brain damage which changed him this drastically? Was it too much social media, was it covid-related, was he poisoned? Did too much money and power get to him? I would seriously like to know. By know, knowing abou…

Thai Cave rescue happened in 2018. It should have already made obvious how completely deranged Musk was to everyone, even if they were not paying close attention before and were dazzled by self-driving cars and Mars colonization promises.

That was certainly the first time he did something so obviously blatantly evil, and obviously his own fault, that I wasn't able to ignore it or dismiss it.

It was sufficiently awful, at first I couldn't even believe he'd done it. When I internalised that he was the kind of person to do that, it made it much easier to see his other flaws.

Re: The Walls Are Closing in on Tesla

#66

Post by ndsipa_pomu »

rhubarbtree wrote: post #29
WA wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You were duped. Tesla‘s paint it black video is from 2016 and one the first obvious lies. People called Musk out on his BS 10 years ago, but he successfully managed to keep a "genius" imagine in the media up until COVID-19 hit. Media sentiment changed around 2020/2021 to adjust to reality of Musk being a massive fraudster.

Important point here: the discussion is about his character, but you’ve made it about his intellect. I don’t think anyone can doubt that Musk is super smart. I’ve heard silly things like - he doesn’t do anything, it’s all his employees or board or assistant - but reading the history that’s obviously false. It does seem some people can’t cope with the idea that someone is often an asshat is also brilliant. And I’m afr…

> I don’t think anyone can doubt that Musk is super smart

I doubt it. He was born into money and was lucky enough to make some excellent purchasing decisions. His various talks and arguments on the internet show him to be fairly stupid in my opinion. I've heard tell that his successful businesses are mainly successful when the staff learn how to manage Musk and prevent his dumbest ideas.

Re: The Walls Are Closing in on Tesla

#67

Post by cr125rider »

esseph wrote: post #58
jaccola wrote: post #8

I mostly agree, but I would have agreed with a similar article 10 years ago, and that would have been a fairly widely held opinion (e.g. Bill Gates was famously short Tesla). So I wouldn’t be so sure as this piece is in Tesla’s downfall, and the emotive language doesn’t help this look like an objective analysis. I also don’t like articles that take the industry consensus or expert opinion as a priori the correct opin…

What about the people that were killed because they couldn't figure out how to get out of the fucking car when it caught fire with them in the back?

The “cool” and unique factor of those door handles help sell more cars and increase brand valuation. Increasing it more than the cost of those lives.

At least that’s what American capitalism has shown us.

Re: The Walls Are Closing in on Tesla

#68

Post by ben_w »

kilroy123 wrote: post #34
iammjm wrote: post #5

I used to really like and admire Musk. You could say I was a fanboy. I am still asking myself what the fuck happened? Was he faking his true character all this time and managed to dupe me? Did he suffer some brain damage which changed him this drastically? Was it too much social media, was it covid-related, was he poisoned? Did too much money and power get to him? I would seriously like to know. By know, knowing abou…

He had a PR team working overtime to boost his image. Remember he had a cameo in movie Iron Man 3 back in the day. He meticulously worked on his image for decades.

The Iron Man thing… MCU Tony Stark wasn't as smart as he thought he was. He should've allowed surgeons to help with his heart immediately, rather than the entire B-plot of Iron Man 2; Iron Man 3's plot could've been averted in a whole bunch of ways if he'd been less arrogant and thoughtless, and also shows him as a loner unwilling to call for assistance despite (by this point) being allied with what passes for gods in the MCU; Ultron was his own hubris punching him in the face; the justification he gives for the Sokovia Accords was a stupid response to an act of self-defence that, sure, could've and should've been handled better, but it isn't like Stark himself was great at avoiding collateral damage during emergencies in the other films; his rage-fight against Barnes in Civil War, while understandable, was wildly unprofessional and a sign he was not a suitable person to be in possession of a one-man weapon system like the Iron Man suits have been shown to be; his tech gift to Peter Parker had wildly inadequate safety measures to be gifted to someone still in school, even if they had been to space.

Basically: yes, Musk is just like Stark. Half as smart as he thinks he is, has main-character syndrome and/or narcissism.

Re: The Walls Are Closing in on Tesla

#69

Post by ndsipa_pomu »

cowpig wrote: post #11
schiffern wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I am still asking myself what the fuck happened? I think the Scott Adams piece the other day[0] described the system dynamics well: "Once you’re sufficiently prominent, politics becomes a separating equilibrium; if you lean even slightly to one side, the other will pile on you so massively and traumatically that it will force you into their opponents’ open arms just for a shred of psychological security." I think B…

Are you implying that "moving right" necessitates lying about basic things constantly? Also, didn't Musk publicly quit Trump's advisory councils over exiting the Paris Agreement back in 2017? Why does that rift not qualify for your "separating politics" hypothesis?

Generally, right-wing politics are about the exploitation of others and lying is typically a part of that.

Re: The Walls Are Closing in on Tesla

#70

Post by ndsipa_pomu »

refurb wrote: post #33
iammjm wrote: post #5

I used to really like and admire Musk. You could say I was a fanboy. I am still asking myself what the fuck happened? Was he faking his true character all this time and managed to dupe me? Did he suffer some brain damage which changed him this drastically? Was it too much social media, was it covid-related, was he poisoned? Did too much money and power get to him? I would seriously like to know. By know, knowing abou…

I find it odd to completely disavow someone because you don’t agree 100% with their politics. I mean Werner Von Braun was a Nazi party member and knowingly used slave labor. Doesn’t make his rocketry advancements any less impressive. Or Charles Darwin’s views of superior races. Or Gandhi’s gray area views of pedophilia. I mean if you’re going to discounted every person with a view you find distasteful your list of pe…

And Hitler painted some nice watercolours.
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