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Why senior engineers let bad projects fail

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Re: Why senior engineers let bad projects fail

#61

Post by JohnFen »

tyleo wrote: post #54
JohnFen wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Has it backfired? You weren't asking me, but I'll chime in anyhow. If by "backfire" you mean have I suffered any adverse consequences, then no. Interestingly, in several cases, I've had other engineers talk to me privately to express gratitude that I said something. They had the same concerns as I, but were too afraid to speak up for fear of consequences. My attitude has always been that if I'm being punished for d…

Yeah, I love this take. Very similar for me. I have encountered people who don’t want to hear advice and repeatedly have a sort of knee-jerk negative reaction. It’s very rare though and I’d leave an org if this was the norm. I can count these people on one hand in my 10-year career. I’ve also encountered people who have an initial negative reaction but considered the advice over the next few days or weeks and later t…

I don't think that I've ever had an actual negative initial reaction (ignoring them thinking I'm wrong -- I don't think that's negative, that's an opportunity for growth and learning, maybe by me). I am, however, careful in how I say things. Specifically, I'm careful to avoid any criticism of other people's judgement. I talk about the project and the project only, never the people working on it. Handling people is the job of a manager, and I'm not a manager.

Re: Why senior engineers let bad projects fail

#62

Post by t-writescode »

dwaltrip wrote: post #22
tyleo wrote: post #2

I disagree, and I think this advice can be actively harmful. You shouldn’t ignore a problem when you’re in a position to help. At the same time, you also shouldn’t take on the emotional burden of other people’s projects. If I see something heading toward failure, I let people know they may want to consider a different approach. That’s it. There’s no need to be harsh or belabor the point but it’s better to speak up th…

How well has that worked? Has it backfired? I think you both are right in different ways.

I’ve suffered adverse consequences for it. I didn’t take the other advice in this thread, though: to not put emotional investment into it.

Re: Why senior engineers let bad projects fail

#63

Post by ljm »

BikiniPrince wrote: post #9

Reminds me of one of my managers who said, “Sometimes, you have to let people fail.” It does take a lot of energy to keep some people afloat. My hope has always been they learn to swim as it were, but sometimes it’s just effort better spent elsewhere. I know one project did not have my involvement and couldn’t have succeeded without my knowledge. They were so bad they would work in questions casually to their actual…

Letting people learn the hard way is a risky endeavour because you have to trust they’re aware of themselves, and they’re not coasting on your support.

Gotta accept that a likely outcome is that they do fail and they don’t learn and you have to let them go. But if you tried to support them beforehand, did what you could, at least you can have a clear conscience.

Re: Why senior engineers let bad projects fail

#64

Post by alphazard »

chc4 wrote: post #40
alphazard wrote: post #27

Companies need ways for individuals to bet against projects and people that are likely to fail. So much of the overhead in a large organization is from bad decisions, or people who usually make bad decisions remaining in positions of power. Imagine if instead of having to speak up, and risk political capital, you could simply place a bet, and carry on with your work. Leadership can see that people are betting against…

brb taking out a 10:1 bet on a new project which will print money and then rm -rf'ing all the code so i get a payout

If a single engineer can sabotage a project, then the company has bigger things to worry about. There should be backups, or you know, GitHub with branch protection.

Aside from that, perverse incentives are a real problem with these systems, but not an insurmountable one. Everyone on the project should be long on the project, if they don't think it will work, why are they working on it? At the very least, people working on the project should have to disclose their position on the project, and the project lead can decide whether they are invested enough to work on it. Part of the compensation for working on the project could be long bets paid for by the company, you know like how equity options work, except these are way more likely to pay out.

If no one wants to work on a project, the company can adjust the price of the market by betting themselves. Eventually it will be a deal that someone wants to take. And if it's not, then why is the project happening? clearly everyone is willing to stake money that it will fail.

Re: Why senior engineers let bad projects fail

#65

Post by hden »

cj wrote: post #44
BeetleB wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Reminds me of one of my managers who said, “Sometimes, you have to let people fail.” I often say "Sometimes, you have to let the manager fail." Some managers don't like being told their ideas won't work. If you refuse or argue, you are seen as the reason his idea failed. I've found what works best with them is to proceed with the work, but keep them informed very frequently, so they can see how things evolve, and w…

I can’t imagine holding a job where I had to do work that I expect will fail. Sounds absolutely depressing. What keeps you motivated?

mortgage?

Re: Why senior engineers let bad projects fail

#66

Post by cardanome »

cj wrote: post #44
BeetleB wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Reminds me of one of my managers who said, “Sometimes, you have to let people fail.” I often say "Sometimes, you have to let the manager fail." Some managers don't like being told their ideas won't work. If you refuse or argue, you are seen as the reason his idea failed. I've found what works best with them is to proceed with the work, but keep them informed very frequently, so they can see how things evolve, and w…

I can’t imagine holding a job where I had to do work that I expect will fail. Sounds absolutely depressing. What keeps you motivated?

The paycheck?

The vast majority of software projects fail. Honestly, I can't remember ever in my career working on a project I really believed in.

Sometimes I do enjoy the challenge of doing the impossible. Turning a doomed project around or at least minimizing damage. I had some where I thought "this worked out but if anyone but me had been in charge, yeah this would have been a disaster". That feeds my ego. Though I never ever get any thanks from management or any praise. Though this is more of a German culture thing.

There is a reason why burn out is so high in software dev. You are set up to constantly fail. If you succeed against all odds you get more and harder work until you fail.

You got to focus on yourself and find joy in the little challenges. Don't fret over things that you can't change.

Re: Why senior engineers let bad projects fail

#67

Post by JohnFen »

recursive wrote: post #41
JohnFen wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you're not being ethical in your business transactions and decisions, you're bad at business. And life.

It seems there's a difference between unethical projects and projects that are just a bad idea. If someone wants to pay someone else to work on Uber for cat socks, but with AI, I don't think there's much of an ethical dimension.

Yes, that's certainly true. I guess what I was alluding to is that I think ethics should inform all decision-making, including business. A bad idea isn't necessarily unethical, although the execution of it (or even a good idea) can be. Unless the idea harms unconsenting others.

Generally, it's not what you sing, it's how you sing it.

Re: Why senior engineers let bad projects fail

#68

Post by paradox460 »

wordsunite wrote: post #50

Definitely a big tech thing I don’t miss. At a startup everyone is trying to make the company succeed vs pet projects, so giving advice about architectural decisions or helping fellow engineers with areas you have more expertise in is often welcomed. There are always pros and cons, but that type of culture is so much more fun. Even on hard days I love working with people who want to help each other.

Not always. I had to learn early in my career that sometimes when the founder says they want your honest opinion on something, your expertise, they're lying and just what you to affirm their ideas. You don't, they get mad, and eventually they have to do a layoff or fire you, simply for disagreeing

Everyone likes to pretend it doesn't happen. But ask around and you'll find many people have experienced it

Re: Why senior engineers let bad projects fail

#69

Post by paradox460 »

chc4 wrote: post #40
alphazard wrote: post #27

Companies need ways for individuals to bet against projects and people that are likely to fail. So much of the overhead in a large organization is from bad decisions, or people who usually make bad decisions remaining in positions of power. Imagine if instead of having to speak up, and risk political capital, you could simply place a bet, and carry on with your work. Leadership can see that people are betting against…

brb taking out a 10:1 bet on a new project which will print money and then rm -rf'ing all the code so i get a payout

No post body was provided.

Re: Why senior engineers let bad projects fail

#70

Post by Groxx »

cj wrote: post #44
BeetleB wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Reminds me of one of my managers who said, “Sometimes, you have to let people fail.” I often say "Sometimes, you have to let the manager fail." Some managers don't like being told their ideas won't work. If you refuse or argue, you are seen as the reason his idea failed. I've found what works best with them is to proceed with the work, but keep them informed very frequently, so they can see how things evolve, and w…

I can’t imagine holding a job where I had to do work that I expect will fail. Sounds absolutely depressing. What keeps you motivated?

I'd say it happens pretty frequently, when in a medium-large corp or larger. The middle layers don't know what they're asking for, and don't listen to feedback, as a general statement. They're just managers, not managers that are also technical experts.

The paycheck is a big motivation, as is "the rest of the work is enjoyable enough to overlook things I disagree with". Work is rarely 100% aligned with every employee's thoughts, so I think this is actually normal. Not ideal, obviously, but normal.

It's why a hierarchy actually does make some sense - alignment is rarely perfect, so choosing a single path and saying "everyone needs to get on board, that's why we pay you" can in fact be better for everyone, rather than bikeshedding everything to death. It can and very frequently does cause rather obvious severe problems, but it's capable of improving some things.

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