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Americans Overwhelmingly Support Science, but Some Think the U.S. Is Lagging

scientificamerican.com

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Re: Americans Overwhelmingly Support Science, but Some Think the U.S. Is Lagging

#61
post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seems like an arrogant American take. The United States primary and secondary schools are middling at best, and that has been showing through to its universities. Foreigners were already choosing Chinese universities. It's not like the recent administration could just "keep pulling", what do they have to appeal with? Obviously shutting off the flow of any and all talent is stupid, but it's a little arrogant to preten…

Most schools are middling - but the US was willing to give generous scholarships and post-graduation grants to smart immigrants to build it here. There was a long entrenched culture that in the US you could turn your intelligence into positive change and get rich doing it. We've been slipping into rent seeking at least since the eighties though - so the share that actual researchers get has been shrinking while the c…

> There was a long entrenched culture that in the US you could turn your intelligence into positive change and get rich doing it.

Yes, this is still true, and why immigration to America maintained its previous momentum. It was often easier to get a student visa than a different immigration visa, so for the past 30 years or so that has been the primary route, and in turn has raised the prestige of American universities.

However, if you look at the American-born population, their students are not impressive. Quite the opposite, for how much funding their education gets. And—by federal interest—only ~10% of the undergraduate student body can be foreigners. Professors at American universities routinely complain about their students' low standards. Things are not the same as they were ten years ago, let alone thirty or fifty years ago.

I think international sentiment has not shifted to the point that this is common knowledge—that if people want to go international, they better attend a school in China or Switzerland—but it would have happened in a few years with or without Trump, and the decline would be as apparent as the primary and secondary school decline has been.

Re: Americans Overwhelmingly Support Science, but Some Think the U.S. Is Lagging

#62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

These are bad things but I have a hard time seeing these as the reason why science is lagging. Science is lagging in the US because the US has destroyed viable careers in science. Who does the hard work to get PHd in a scientific field knowing that they'll be saddled with hundreds of thousands of jobs in debt and that there's a good chance that they'll have no employment opportunities after the fact. Especially with…

People do not graduate with a STEM PhD with hundreds of thousands in debt; that is not how the education system works pretty much anywhere in the world.

People who had to pay for their undergrad education in prestigious US colleges do. https://www.brookings.edu/articles/biden-is-right-a-lot-of-s...

But hey, don't let basic research get in the way of confidence, amirite?

Re: Americans Overwhelmingly Support Science, but Some Think the U.S. Is Lagging

#63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

These are bad things but I have a hard time seeing these as the reason why science is lagging. Science is lagging in the US because the US has destroyed viable careers in science. Who does the hard work to get PHd in a scientific field knowing that they'll be saddled with hundreds of thousands of jobs in debt and that there's a good chance that they'll have no employment opportunities after the fact. Especially with…

People do not graduate with a STEM PhD with hundreds of thousands in debt; that is not how the education system works pretty much anywhere in the world.

Generally true, unless they have large undergrad loans that they weren't able to pay off, which is a real consideration for many.

Re: Americans Overwhelmingly Support Science, but Some Think the U.S. Is Lagging

#64

Everyone in the world "supports" science, exactly the same way everyone "supports" healthy lifestyles, democracy and other "good things". The problem is that everyone has a different idea of what these good things are. For some, science is vaccines, understanding global warming and the theory of evolution. Others will say that real science is denying global warming, creationism, anti-vaxers or homeopathy.

Are those two groups of people’s opinions on the subject equally valid?

No. And that is exactly my point: we're considering to be pro-science the opinion of people that are actually against it.

Re: Americans Overwhelmingly Support Science, but Some Think the U.S. Is Lagging

#65

Everyone in the world "supports" science, exactly the same way everyone "supports" healthy lifestyles, democracy and other "good things". The problem is that everyone has a different idea of what these good things are. For some, science is vaccines, understanding global warming and the theory of evolution. Others will say that real science is denying global warming, creationism, anti-vaxers or homeopathy.

I think you need to update your opposing science positions to human biology/race science. Creationism and homeopathy is a tiny minority.

Whatever man... I wanted to provide examples, not a catalog.

Re: Americans Overwhelmingly Support Science, but Some Think the U.S. Is Lagging

#66
post #55

Everyone in the world "supports" science, exactly the same way everyone "supports" healthy lifestyles, democracy and other "good things". The problem is that everyone has a different idea of what these good things are. For some, science is vaccines, understanding global warming and the theory of evolution. Others will say that real science is denying global warming, creationism, anti-vaxers or homeopathy.

> Others will say that real science is denying global warming, creationism, anti-vaxers or homeopathy. I haven't heard their advocates refer to those things as science, but rather they criticize science's validity.

Well, then you didn't pay attention.

"It is sound science", "be open to debate", "studies show" is the kind of arguments they use a lot. They use twisted arguments from science's language.

Re: Americans Overwhelmingly Support Science, but Some Think the U.S. Is Lagging

#67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes but the point is that anti-immigrant demagoguery is about to slow immigration and weaken our future.

That seems like a wildly irrelevant claim in the context of this conversation.

It's direct and blatantly relevant to the discussion that the transformer was invented in America and the cited role of immigrants in that invention, resultingly showing how ending immigration will impact future innovation.

Re: Americans Overwhelmingly Support Science, but Some Think the U.S. Is Lagging

#68

The US has become a world leader in suing curious people into submission. As soon as you touch any commercially available tech and do anything that the manufacturer dislikes, you're at risk, thanks to § 1201: "No person shall circumvent a technological measure that effectively controls access to a work protected under this title." Extending your digital camera with new firmware? Illegal. Inventing a custom ink or add…

These are bad things but I have a hard time seeing these as the reason why science is lagging. Science is lagging in the US because the US has destroyed viable careers in science. Who does the hard work to get PHd in a scientific field knowing that they'll be saddled with hundreds of thousands of jobs in debt and that there's a good chance that they'll have no employment opportunities after the fact. Especially with…

This is the truth. I would love to go back to school and do research to get my PhD. But going back to living on sub-minimum wage to work 80+ hours a week is just not something I can do at this stage of life.

Re: Americans Overwhelmingly Support Science, but Some Think the U.S. Is Lagging

#69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you need to update your opposing science positions to human biology/race science. Creationism and homeopathy is a tiny minority.

Whatever man... I wanted to provide examples, not a catalog.

I think it’s telling about the politicization of science. The examples you gave are essentially straw men. They are Media punching bags.

Human biology is a topic which otherwise scientific people won’t look at scientifically and hold quasi-religious beliefs about.

Re: Americans Overwhelmingly Support Science, but Some Think the U.S. Is Lagging

#70
post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is true. It is also true that their primary and secondary schools were quickly dropping in rank relative to other countries in the 2010s, and their universities were following in the COVID/post-COVID era.

I think the primary and secondary schools were well behind long before the 2010s. > their universities were following in the COVID/post-COVID era I haven't heard of that. Where can I find more about it, if you remember?

My experience at an American university (in the early 2020s) was that the native Americans were much less impressive than the international students, and the professors were mildly annoyed at them compared to previous generations of students they had taught. I think this is a common experience at American universities nowadays—I mean, what else would you expect with the primary/secondary school decline?—but I do not have any hard data to show you. I think you can find a lot of similar anecodotes on r/professors, though it seems to be more of a complain-subreddit than representative of all professors.

I think it is difficult to find data on this, as there are not many international assessments at the university level. You can look at research output, but research is kind of bullshit these days, and even if it weren't, it would be skewed by the older generations. You can look at international competitions, but does America do poorly in the ICPC because they're worse, or because they don't care? Brigham Young University (a small-fry religious school in Utah, USA) got a bronze medal a decade ago, significantly better than their other universities. If you investigate a little further, you'll find this university did decent at the Putnam around the same time, so they probably just had a few students who really tried hard. It's known that MIT dominates the Putnam, but that is now literally a self-fulfilling prophecy. I know many math people who chose MIT above other schools because it is the place Putnam winners go.

One thing you can look at is the graduate body composition. At elite universities, around 40% of graduate students are foreigners (compared to 30% 50 years ago). Across all universities, nearly half of PhDs are awarded to foreigners. However, this does not really prove American undergraduate students are falling behind, and it mildly supports the case that American universities maintain their prestige. I actually believe American universities do still maintain their prestige, just that they are more of a paper tiger than Americans like to believe. Almost like MIT with the Putnam, everyone goes to America because everyone goes to America.

Well, that plus a ton of investor money floating around. The dollar hegemony is still going strong, and while the invasion of Venezuela shows it might be a little weaker than the average American hopes, they're not going to let it go away without a fight.

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