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The mineral riches hiding under Greenland's ice

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Re: The mineral riches hiding under Greenland's ice

#61

Post by 10xDev »

throwaway132448 wrote: post #48
nayroclade wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

True, but after this led to the disasters of WW1 and WW2, there was a genuine international effort to constrain it. Of course, it was a deeply imperfect system, especially with the cold war going on, but it was still an improvement on the naked imperialism and genocide that preceded it. Unfortunately, it appears we're rapidly regressing to the former situation, except this time with atomic weapons.

The vast majority of people aren't empathetic enough to learn from experiences they didn't live through themselves. Yet I'm still surprised that the death of the living memory of WW1 and WW2 would take effect this quickly.

The problem is that people aren't effectively taught about the lead up to these wars as much as they are of what happened during them. At least that was my experience when I was taught about them in class.

People don't have a proper reference point of what is currently happening. Once a war starts it is already too late.

Re: The mineral riches hiding under Greenland's ice

#62

Post by jorl17 »

hliyan wrote: post #13

The events of the past 12 months, culminating in Venezuela and now Greenland, has made me reevaluate a lot of my beliefs about unimpeded competition between free agents (i.e. a free market) leading to the best and most peaceful outcomes. Clearly, a few participants becoming disproportionately powerful is a failure mode. The way I've tried to reconcile my beliefs with what are clearly contradictory observations in the…

I am in the exact same camp. My belief in free markets has been completely shattered and my political stance on several subjects has changed dramatically over the last years.

I no longer believe in the free market at all.

Of course this isn't the result of a single isolated event. Our lives are poems that constantly re-write and scrutinize themselves after all, like living ink that breathes new pages anew. But if I had to pinpoint one very specific period with a very measurable effect on my position it was the whole Elon Musk saga (DOGE+"heart salute"). A lunatic billionaire seemingly doing what he wants, rewriting narratives, making up facts, history, and saying things which were so evidently false, and showing up next to a president as if he were himself president, never having been elected, was shocking.

I used to really believe that "money followed what was good for society". There would be outliers and some noise, but overall these would be well correlated. I now look back and wonder how absolutely naive of me that was. Billionaires should not be allowed. They are a disgrace to the system. It's actually vile and disgusting to have them in our society.

I'm not an american and I used to dream of going to the USA, perhaps even living there. I now want to stay as far away from it as possible, and view the supposed american dream as either a past reality or effective propaganda I bought into previously. Maybe that's better for america and it's what they need to grow, who knows.

Re: The mineral riches hiding under Greenland's ice

#63

Post by MrGilbert »

hliyan wrote: post #13

The events of the past 12 months, culminating in Venezuela and now Greenland, has made me reevaluate a lot of my beliefs about unimpeded competition between free agents (i.e. a free market) leading to the best and most peaceful outcomes. Clearly, a few participants becoming disproportionately powerful is a failure mode. The way I've tried to reconcile my beliefs with what are clearly contradictory observations in the…

When I was young, back in school, I asked my teacher why the main purpose of a company is to grow. Their response was: "Because it has to be."

I don't think we need unlimited growth. Or, better: We CANNOT have unlimited growth, because there is a natural limit to the resources that are available. We, as a society, should do better than this. And that is what worries me: The sheer ignorance (or unawareness?) people have about their surroundings. I'm not sure if it is malicious, or just a coping strategy. But instead of looking into the real cause that lead to certain events, be it the environment, economical or political, people quickly blame minorities for all the bad that is happening, breastfed by the narrative that people like to repeat over and over again - "because it has always been like that".

For the longest time, I tried to counterargue and explain, why certain things are the way they are, and offered another perspective. But ears have become deaf, more than before.

I'm tired.

Re: The mineral riches hiding under Greenland's ice

#64

Post by Y-bar »

azan_ wrote: post #46
WhereIsTheTruth wrote: post #21

What could become an economic boom will become a century of humiliation for Europe Well done Europeans, catering to Trump

Could you please explain how does Europe cater to Trump and how does it make him more likely to invade Greenland?

I would guess it is a reference to EU conceding to Trump's tariffs such as https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/czxpdv5x54ko and general lax treatment of how cosy he and Putin is with each other.

Re: The mineral riches hiding under Greenland's ice

#65

Post by bsenftner »

throwaway132448 wrote: post #30
hliyan wrote: post #13

The events of the past 12 months, culminating in Venezuela and now Greenland, has made me reevaluate a lot of my beliefs about unimpeded competition between free agents (i.e. a free market) leading to the best and most peaceful outcomes. Clearly, a few participants becoming disproportionately powerful is a failure mode. The way I've tried to reconcile my beliefs with what are clearly contradictory observations in the…

All "free market" ideals require no/low barriers to entry in order for the market to be "self regulating". Said absence of barriers to entry almost never exists, hence the idea of completely free markets is completely naive - you need regulation. Markets also cannot account for externalities. If those externalities are something you care about (e.g. the environment you live in) - you need regulation. Economies of sca…

It more basic than that, it is what used to be considered common sense. The United States has screwed basic education, effective communications is not even taught - the seed of common sense, and has been producing intellectually crippled wage slaves for that last 40+ years. It's going to require a culture revolution to pull out of this nose civilization-wide dive, and that revolution is not going to happen in the USA.

Re: The mineral riches hiding under Greenland's ice

#66

Post by hliyan »

Rainbooow wrote: post #53
throwaway132448 wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All "free market" ideals require no/low barriers to entry in order for the market to be "self regulating". Said absence of barriers to entry almost never exists, hence the idea of completely free markets is completely naive - you need regulation. Markets also cannot account for externalities. If those externalities are something you care about (e.g. the environment you live in) - you need regulation. Economies of sca…

Is it really basic economics that free market leads to monopolies? I thought this is not something where there is a strong consensus about ; free market advocates will actually argue that this is regulation that leads to monopolies.

Yes, there's an entire body of work, starting with Ayn Rand, that vehemently argues that government interference in the economy is what leads to monopolies.

Re: The mineral riches hiding under Greenland's ice

#67

Post by flr03 »

gbuk2013 wrote: post #34
kombine wrote: post #18

This is Crimea 2.0. The ideological basis behind the annexation is identical in both instances.

There is no similarity whatsoever.

One similarity is, if I'm correct, Russia claimed that the naval base of Sevastopol was vital for Russian security.

The protection of the population and the illegitimacy of the current government was an argument developed by Russia at the time, it has not been yet by USA but I suspect this might start develop in the next few weeks.

The common ingredients to justify an invasion/annexation is a mix of: - Self-Defense, security - Historical, Geographical claims - Protection of the population - Moral sugar coating (we had no choice)

Re: The mineral riches hiding under Greenland's ice

#69

Post by simgt »

hliyan wrote: post #32
renegade-otter wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's right. Entities must be acting as CITIZENS, first and foremost, bound by laws, norms, and shame. Shame, the glue of civilization, as I call it, is quickly disappearing. The Nothing Matters LOL world is bound to decompose.

I wonder whether this is a side effect of the self esteem movement, and the whole "don't care about what others think of you" ethos.

Individualism is the word. Adam Curtis' "The Century Of Self" is nice to watch on that topic, it's always available on Youtube somehow.

Re: The mineral riches hiding under Greenland's ice

#70

Post by ivan_gammel »

haritha-j wrote: post #50

For decades Europe has cheered on, if not actively aided as America bullied smaller nations. Now they’ve come to realise they aren’t so special.

The thing is, Europe is kinda special. Cascade effects of America forcefully taking over Greenland will be by orders of magnitude more painful to Americans than Brexit was to Britain. America flipping from an ally to an adversary will trigger huge economic decoupling and it is practically certain that dollar will immediately loose its weight and USA may even default on its debt after that. Yes, Europe is going to suffer too, but I have a gut feeling that European citizens will still do better.
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