Live data from Hacker News

Lottocracy: Democracy Without Elections

lottocracy.org

61–70 of 105 posts

Re: Lottocracy: Democracy Without Elections

#61

The diagnosis I largely agree with. To the point I no longer identify as a (small-d) democrat, it is the tyrrany of the mob's choice of (usually reprehensible) representative, who will have lied and pacted with corrupt elites to obtain his/her position, and been nominally elected by the ignorant. Anyone who wants power should by that fact be excluded. The solution however (lottery-election) is absurd. We should inste…

> We should instead restrict the franchise by exam to provably non-ignorant, non-evil critical thinkers so that we get representatives who are non-sociopaths that we can respect. How do we prove non-evil? Also the exam part brings to mind the Chinese imperial exams for civil service. I don't know whether that's good or bad, it didn't work out well for them.

For a critical thinking exam, you should be able to show that you can decipher political gobledegook, identify lies and platitiudes, strawman arguments etc(there would be much less of it anyway as in a restricted franchise very few with votes would be swayed by it, which is the point.)

Non-evilness would be shown by answering questions designed to test basic empathy, and also by the lack of recent recorded crimes or misdemenours.

Re: Lottocracy: Democracy Without Elections

#62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And if you try to place limits on staffers, then you’ll find even more legislation being drafted by lobbyists.

Outlaw lobbying/lobbyists. What's next?

I have questions here, a lot of lobbying is done by:

a) trade organizations (we're all the onion farmers in Nebraska and want to make sure the Nebraska legislature doesn't pass laws that negatively impact us and promote laws that help us)

and

b) activist organizations (we're a coalition of organizations that protect water usage in the Mississippi delta and want to pass laws that promote conservation in those states)

Those groups often choose to retain professional lobbyists but will also send groups of interested parties to lobby who are not professional lobbyists.

Do you also ban trade organizations and activist organizations in this case? Do you carve out exceptions for them and just ban the "freelance" lobbyists? Most lobbying is meeting with legislators and talking with them about issues, educating them. How do you ban that without making legislators effectively useless (or if you're cynical, even more useless)?

Re: Lottocracy: Democracy Without Elections

#63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Outlaw lobbying/lobbyists. What's next?

Not possible in a country with freedom of speech protections

Simple. Don't protect it just like sharing nuclear secrets or CSAM isn't protected.

Re: Lottocracy: Democracy Without Elections

#64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not possible in a country with freedom of speech protections

Simple. Don't protect it just like sharing nuclear secrets or CSAM isn't protected.

If you try to ban lobbying you will incidentally criminalize basically all political speech. White papers are a form of lobbying, providing testimony is a form of lobbying, running an ad campaign is lobbying, speaking with your congressional representative is lobbying.

Re: Lottocracy: Democracy Without Elections

#65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Would you rather be treated (medically) by the first 2000 people? Do you think code will be written better by the first 2000? I get being unhappy about current political class, but this kind of claims is wild to me.

I have confidence in the US electoral system to select representatives of more than usual charisma, but not competence or integrity.

In my opinion even charisma implies higher than average intellect which is already something.

We should put more pressure on elected politicians around competence and integrity, sure, but it doesn’t mean random person is going to be better.

In the original comparison second category of people have much higher intellect than average.

Re: Lottocracy: Democracy Without Elections

#66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Simple. Don't protect it just like sharing nuclear secrets or CSAM isn't protected.

If you try to ban lobbying you will incidentally criminalize basically all political speech. White papers are a form of lobbying, providing testimony is a form of lobbying, running an ad campaign is lobbying, speaking with your congressional representative is lobbying.

It'd simply have to be carefully drafted policy rather than an internet comment.

Re: Lottocracy: Democracy Without Elections

#67

The issue with randomly selected representation is that the support staff start to become the ones who effectively make the decisions. This is the same issue with term limits (which to be clear, I'm in favor of, but we have to go in with our eyes open), which is that e.g. the congressional staffers gain power, especially if they persist across the end of the term limit. In these kinds of cases, you almost need term l…

Term limits seem fine, just make them a reasonable length. Say, three of their full six year terms for a Senator seems fine for example. Or maybe allow states to elect one senator to a fourth term (logically this will always be their senior senator) but never both and no fifth terms. [I'm assuming we'll allow, as for Presidents, an incomplete first term, for senators that might be by election to replace another out of sequence]

A freshman senator might be intimidated by an aide who knows DC like the back of their hand after forty years in the office back room, but when they're back for their second, let alone third term, that old hack doesn't know the first thing about the actual job, that aide isn't in those meetings hashing out a 2am compromise with the White House, and they're not in a town hall back home trying to explain to some fellow who has never left Kentucky why we need to spend so much money on a Navy they've never seen.

Another alternative, which existing American politicians will hate but too bad, is age limits. For example the UK's Supreme Court all have to retire by age 75. I can't imagine a lot of the oldest senators are effective legislators, they'd rather be in bed than get stuff done. So, age them out.

Re: Lottocracy: Democracy Without Elections

#69
Couple questions .... what is the author's point of origin and experience with "democracy" and/or "democracies"? I mention this as the founding principals of this Lottery thing are more or less "complaints" and not values or principals really. It is very slasdash and hollow.

But this is a fun thought experiment so lets .... move on.

Why *exactly* is democracy the absolute best form of govt known to mankind? You just kinda slip that in there which is a massive assumption. And exactly which democracy is best aside from the one proposed?

For that matter exactly WHO? and I do mean WHO says that democracies aren't working? Who the fuck has the balls to say that horseshit premise?

No one is saying that. Not seriously, anywhere. No one. That ultimately is the fatal flaw for this thought experiment.

There are fundamentally different value judgments from "European" "Democracies" vs US vs Asian as examples.

Lottery based is an interesting system but not really doable the way this site lays out.

3 years is too short to do anything; unless there is a relief value where a certain percentage (by lottery) of that year's cohort can do something critical in any representative form of govt. Incumbency.

You do in fact need a slowly revolving core of representatives who can do proper work over 2-5 terms max. Otherwise its a constant nut house with nothing getting done and not near enough permanence for medium to long term solutions over time.

At the end of the day for me -- I do not think the people behind this thought this through and it shows. There isnt serious skull sweat in this thing and I think it undermines an interesting concept. I also think just because you are frustrated in democratic processes -- you are the problem.

Apathy is a choice. Ignorance is a choice. Frustration is a choice.

If you do not like your form of govt -- move, make peace with it or roll up them sleeves and get busy participating.

Re: Lottocracy: Democracy Without Elections

#70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And if you try to place limits on staffers, then you’ll find even more legislation being drafted by lobbyists.

Well, to be fair, I would also be in favor of banning lobbying entirely, which I recognize is also problematic - then you have laws being written based on sub rosa back room deals, since lobbying is to a certain degree "human relationships in the context of power dynamics" aka politics.

Banning lobbying would be effectively a ban on all political speech. Because that's what lobbying is: political speech. For example, yesterday I sent a bunch of letters to my elected politicians talking about the Rio Grande Plan[0]. That makes me a Rio Grande Plan lobbyist. Louis Rossmann spent several years traveling across-country to speak about right-to-repair[1] laws. That makes him a right-to-repair lobbyist.

What we actually are angry about is the presence of money in politics. American political campaigns burn money like nothing else, which is akin to being in a government meeting where everyone is shouting over one another, like to the point where people are bringing in loudspeakers and megaphones. If that example were a real situation, it would be entirely legal to go and have police officers take away the megaphones, and tell people to quiet down and take their turn.

But because money is involved, SCOTUS says that, no, shouting over everyone else with a big pile of cash is TOTALLY protected speech. Any money at all that is to effect political speech is inherently protected. And so we have campaign seasons that burn billions of dollars, and people who are basically not listened to, because all the anti-bribery law that was supposed to stop the election fundraising arms race got thrown out over a decade ago.

[0] A citizen-led plan to reactivate Salt Lake City's historic train station and reroute our regional rail service over to it.

[1] Laws that would make it easier to purchase repair parts for broken electronics and prohibit the use of digital locks to prevent the repair of said electronics.

Post reply on HN