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Linux DAW: Help Linux musicians to quickly and easily find the tools they need

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Re: Linux DAW: Help Linux musicians to quickly and easily find the tools they need

#61
post #3

Just an fyi to anyone making or thinking of making one of these: Turning a knob with a mouse is the worst interface I can think of. I don't know why audio apps/DAWs fall so hard on skeuomorphism here when the interface just doesn't make sense in the context.

Are you experienced with DAWs as a composer or producer?

Many if not most professional producers use MIDI controllers with knobs/sliders/buttons MIDI mapped to DAW controls. As such the skeuomorphism actually plays a valuable role in ensuring that the physical instrument experience maps to their workflows. Secondarily, during production/mastering, producers are generally using automation lanes and envelopes to program parameters into the timeline, and the piano roll to polish the actual notes.

When I've historically done working sessions, the composition phase of what I'm doing tends to involve very little interaction with the keyboard, and is almost entirely driven by my interaction with the MIDI controller.

Conversely, when I'm at the production phase, I am generally not futzing with around with either knobs or the controller, and I am entirely interacting with the DAW through automation lanes or drawing in notes through the piano roll. So I don't really ever use the knob through a mouse and I've never really encountered any professional or even hobbyist musicians who do except for throwaway experimentation purposes.

Re: Linux DAW: Help Linux musicians to quickly and easily find the tools they need

#62
post #51
post #3

Just an fyi to anyone making or thinking of making one of these: Turning a knob with a mouse is the worst interface I can think of. I don't know why audio apps/DAWs fall so hard on skeuomorphism here when the interface just doesn't make sense in the context.

Good morning. An expanding plethora of buttons, tabs, menus requires geometrical memory that may have nothing directly to do with the function in question. The first GUIs were designed that functions be "discoverable," however the size of haystacks in which these discoverable functions hide has grown exponentially, adding cognitive overhead, and increasing the length of apprenticeship needed to master the application…

What is the DAW that you are the author of?

Re: Linux DAW: Help Linux musicians to quickly and easily find the tools they need

#63
post #3

Just an fyi to anyone making or thinking of making one of these: Turning a knob with a mouse is the worst interface I can think of. I don't know why audio apps/DAWs fall so hard on skeuomorphism here when the interface just doesn't make sense in the context.

I use knobs everyday in my audio tools (with my track pad) and they're perfectly fine as long as they have three features: 1. Drag up/down to change value. 2. A modifier key to slow the drag for finer resolution changes when dragging. 3. The ability to double-click the knob and type in precise values when I know exactly what I want. The problem with knobs on a GUI is when designers stay with them when there is a fast…

> For example, the EQ on any SSL channel strip is a nightmare because they slavishly stick with a skeumorphic design of the original hardware.

True though I would put this very much in the "feature, not a bug" bucket. These tools are for people who have worked with the original hardware and want a very faithful emulation, including the look and feel. In the digital world with a modern PC there's not much purpose of a channel strip plugin in the first place, so the only people using one are doing so with intention.

It's a bit like saying that manual transmission cars could be controlled more easily if they were automatic transmission; it's completely true, but if you're buying a manual you want that experience.

Pro-Q is a great example of a digital-first tool (the automatic transmission equivalent), with lots of great visual feedback and a lot of thought put into a mouse+kb workflow. All of Fabfilter's stuff is like this actually, though sometimes to its detriment; the Fabfilter automation and LFO system feels very different from basically every other plugin. It's actually a more efficient workflow when you get used to it, but due to how different it is from everything else most people I talk to dislike it unless they've really bought into the Fabfilter suite.

Which kind of goes back to the original point: VSTs use knobs because it's what people are used to, and using something different might be a negative even if it's better!

Re: Linux DAW: Help Linux musicians to quickly and easily find the tools they need

#64

It took quite a bit of scrolling until I found my old faves of dexed and zynaddsubfx, and I didn't see Helm ( https://tytel.org/helm/ ) at all.

Helm has been replaced in practice by Vital (same author), I think.

Re: Linux DAW: Help Linux musicians to quickly and easily find the tools they need

#65

This is great. Makes these tools much more discoverable. I can help but notice the drop in plugin ui quality one you click the foss filter checkbox. Something in me wants a foss plugin to come with a cool skin like the free ones do, but I know that's silly.

Surge and vital have great UIs.

Re: Linux DAW: Help Linux musicians to quickly and easily find the tools they need

#66

It took quite a bit of scrolling until I found my old faves of dexed and zynaddsubfx, and I didn't see Helm ( https://tytel.org/helm/ ) at all.

I submitted a suggestion to add the sophisticated multi-engine FOSS soft synth that I use, Yoshimi (https://yoshimi.sourceforge.io/) which is a linux only fork of ZynAddSubFX.

Re: Linux DAW: Help Linux musicians to quickly and easily find the tools they need

#67

It took quite a bit of scrolling until I found my old faves of dexed and zynaddsubfx, and I didn't see Helm ( https://tytel.org/helm/ ) at all.

Helm has been replaced in practice by Vital (same author), I think.

They are completely different synths.

Vital is a wave table synth; Helm is a subtractive synth.

Helm was the first synthesizer that I really excelled with. I would recommend anyone who wants to actually learn the fundamentals of synthesis, to start on it. Once you get good at to it, it's faster to dial in the exact sound you want than to reach for a preset.

It's far more straightforward and less complicated than additive (ZynAddSubFX), FM, or wave table synths.

That being said, if you just want a very advanced synth with a lot of great presets, Vital is far more advanced.

Re: Linux DAW: Help Linux musicians to quickly and easily find the tools they need

#68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It works great though, what's the alternative? It's visually small, so you can fit a lot of controls in a small space. You can glance at it and know the current setting and where it falls within the range of possible values. By making the mouse control modal when you click on a knob (so you start dragging and can drag over a much larger area than you could for say a slider, which isn't modal) you have immensely preci…

The alternative is the mouse wheel and keybinds. Flight Simulators got this right. Roll up on the wheel to increase the value, roll back on the wheel to decrease the value. Left click to push, right click to pop (or context menu, left click to push it again to turn off). In fact, if it was all MIDI controlled, it's just a matter of mapping the mouse scroll wheel to a midi channel.

Almost all DAWs I've used allow you to use the mouse wheel while clicking to increase/decrease the value on a knob.

Re: Linux DAW: Help Linux musicians to quickly and easily find the tools they need

#69
post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I use knobs everyday in my audio tools (with my track pad) and they're perfectly fine as long as they have three features: 1. Drag up/down to change value. 2. A modifier key to slow the drag for finer resolution changes when dragging. 3. The ability to double-click the knob and type in precise values when I know exactly what I want. The problem with knobs on a GUI is when designers stay with them when there is a fast…

> For example, the EQ on any SSL channel strip is a nightmare because they slavishly stick with a skeumorphic design of the original hardware. True though I would put this very much in the "feature, not a bug" bucket. These tools are for people who have worked with the original hardware and want a very faithful emulation, including the look and feel. In the digital world with a modern PC there's not much purpose of a…

I agree that the SSL channel strip GUI is deliberate because users want something that operates like the hardware. However, I would love the option to grab the freq knob and have it work like an x/y slider for freq/gain.

Sure it mismatches the GUI, but it gives users the option when they don't want to do a click/drag for freq, then gain, then freq, then gain, then Q. You know?

That tediousness is what keeps me from using the SSL channel strip altogether.

Re: channel strip plugins: The advantage to using them in DAWs is speed and economy. Having everything in one window (ala the Scheps Omni Channel) saves me a lot of clicks vs. when I have multiple plugins in different slots.

I do absolutely everything in the box with a laptop keyboard and track pad. My primary motive is being quick and precise, and the less plugin window management I have to do the better. The channel strip keeps the tools compact and my movements minimal.

Re: Linux DAW: Help Linux musicians to quickly and easily find the tools they need

#70
post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Regarding Zoom, music lessons 1:1 online are still pretty common. I would guess this won't hold up with multiple musicians.

Music lessons online are common (I've been in them) because they're largely single duplex. Student plays, teacher listens. Then teacher comments and demonstrates, student listens. There are projects that aim to provide synced multi player jamming, but last I checked they are all based around looping. Human ear SHOCKINGLY does not lend itself to being fooled and will noticed surprisingly small sync issues. I always co…

Sonobus is a software project that tries to accomplish live, audio-only multi-player jamming over the public network.

It's still limited to whatever latency the network has, but it can be useful for some things. If that means it's mostly useful for loops, then that's up to the musicians. :)

(I myself have used it for remote livestream participants, but only for voice. I was able to get distinct inputs into my console just like folks in the studio had, and I gave them a mix-minus bus that included everyone's voice but their own, for their headphones.

It worked slick. Interaction was quick and quality was excellent. And unlike what popularly passes for teleconferencing these days: It all flowed smoothly and sounded like they were in the room with us, even though they were a thousand miles away.)

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