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Self-hosting is being enshittified

troubled.engineer

61–70 of 121 posts

Re: Self-hosting is being enshittified

#61

Although the points regarding the software itself which we self host which is getting enshittified is somewhat valid, I feel like we can still see forks,migrate and many other things so I am not particularly worried about it But the biggest thing I am worried about is the hardware prices too. So I want to ask but is there any hardware (usually ram) which isn't getting its price increase insanely much? Perhaps refurbi…

What do you want to run? Small services with an handful of users? Anything can serve them. Media libraries? As long as you have a CPU with QuickSync you’re good for on the fly transcoding and the real limiting factor becomes storage.

A TinyMiniMicro https://www.servethehome.com/introducing-project-tinyminimic... used PC is more than adequate for most workloads (except for local AI and if you want to have a huge amount of storage). Last time I checked the prices were in the ballpark of $100/$150 for a working machine.

New machines with a N series Intel CPU are in the similar ballpark.

Re: Self-hosting is being enshittified

#63
post #60

Maybe I'm missing something here: the great thing about self-hosting is that you choose if and when you update your back-end software. What's stopping self-hosting admins from simply staying on a known good version and forking that if they so desire?

It’s even better than that. You no longer like Plex? Alternatives like Jellyfin are there, you can use them on the same media library

The Plex rug-pull from excellent software to commercial gimmick happened years ago when they removed your ability to search your personal media library.

I assumed that they were being forced by the copyright mafia, but they’re perfectly capable of making these decisions on their own.

Re: Self-hosting is being enshittified

#64

I don't really like that "enshittified" is being used here. You could argue that Plex, MinIO or Mattermost is being enshittified, but definitely not self hosting as a whole. Enshittification also usually implies that switching to an alternative is difficult (usually because creating a competing service is near impossible because you'd have to get users on it). That flaw doesn't really apply to self hosting like it do…

> You could argue that Plex, MinIO or Mattermost is being enshittified, but definitely not self hosting as a whole.

That's probably not how you should interpret it. Self hosting as a whole is still a vastly better option. But if there is a significant enough public movement towards it, you can expect it to be targeted for enshittification too. The incidents related to Plex, MinIO and Mattermost should be taken as warning signals about what this may escalate into in the future. Here are the possible problems I foresee.

1. The situation with Plex, MinIO and Mattermost can be expected to happen more frequently. After a limit, the pain of frequent migration will become untenable. MinIO is a great example. Even the crowd on HN hadn't considered an alternative until then. Some of us learned about Garage, RustFS and Ceph S3 for the first time and we were debating about each of their pros and cons. It's very telling that that discussion was very lengthy.

2. There is a gradual nudge to move everything to the cloud and then monetize it. Mandatory online account for Win11, monetization of GH self-hosted runner (now suspended after backlash, I think) and cloudification of MS Office are good examples. You can expect a similar attempt on self hosted applications. Of course, most of our self-hosted software is currently open source. But if these big companies decide to embrace, extend and extinguish it, I'm not sure that the market will be prudent enough to stick with the FOSS options. Half of HN was fighting me a few days back when I suggested that we should strive to push the market towards serviceable modular hardware.

3. FOSS projects developed under companies are always at a higher risk of being hijacked or going rogue. To be clear, I'm not against that model. For example, I'm happy with Zulip's development and monetization model - ethical, generous and not too pushy. But mattermost shows where that can go wrong. Sure, they're are open source. But there are practical difficulties in easily overriding such issues.

4. At one time, we were expecting small form-factor headless computers (Plug computers [1]) like SheevaPlug and FreedomBox to become ubiquitous. That should still be an option, though I'm not sure where it's headed, given the current RAM situation. But even if they make a come back, it's very likely that OEMs will lock it down like smartphones today and make it difficult for you to exercise your choices of servers, if not outright restrict them. (If anybody wants to argue that normal people will never consider it, remember how smartphones were, before iPhone. We had a blackberry that was used only by a niche crowd.)

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plug_computer

Re: Self-hosting is being enshittified

#65

This blog seems to be from "that side" of the self-hosting world: the homelabbers. If you ask these people you need to buy expensive hardware and build your own datacenter at home. I have been hosting all my services on a single Intel Nuc from 10 years ago and a RPI5 as backup for critical services like DNS. That's it. You'll truly be amazed at how much stuff you can actually run on very little hardware if you only h…

Man, "homelab" is such a wide term. For some it's an old Android, for some it's a literal datacenter in a basement. And everything in between.

Goals are vastly different too. For some it's about hosting a few services to be free from company slop, for others it's a way to practice devops: clustering, containers, complex networking.

Seeing someone recommending Proxmox or Freenas to a beginner that just want to share family photos from an old laptop is wrong in so many ways...

Re: Self-hosting is being enshittified

#66
I don't really agree with this blog post; there is nothing enshittified about self-hosting.

But it does almost seems like there is a squeeze on general purpose computing from all sides, including homelab. The DRAM and SSD prices is just the latest addition to that. There's also Win 11 requiring TPM, which is not an bad thing by itself, but which will almost certainly take away the ability to run arbitrary OSes 5-10 years down the line on PCs. Or you'd still be able to boot them, but nothing will run on it without a fully trusted chain from TPM -> secure boot -> browser.

Re: Self-hosting is being enshittified

#67
post #61

Although the points regarding the software itself which we self host which is getting enshittified is somewhat valid, I feel like we can still see forks,migrate and many other things so I am not particularly worried about it But the biggest thing I am worried about is the hardware prices too. So I want to ask but is there any hardware (usually ram) which isn't getting its price increase insanely much? Perhaps refurbi…

What do you want to run? Small services with an handful of users? Anything can serve them. Media libraries? As long as you have a CPU with QuickSync you’re good for on the fly transcoding and the real limiting factor becomes storage. A TinyMiniMicro https://www.servethehome.com/introducing-project-tinyminimic... used PC is more than adequate for most workloads (except for local AI and if you want to have a huge amoun…

If I am being honest, My father is in the broadband/bandwidth business where I live and I recently told him about the fact that I was thinking of opening up a simple cloud/extremely low cost (in hardware)/mini datacenter or just thinking about it/tinkering with the software sides of these things (proxmox,incus a lot more) and all and he was interested in converting his office into a rack and he can get a lot of static ips and power supply so I was thinking something about this workflow as I had thought about it and the biggest problem to me seems to be the hardware

He is really excited for this project, he brought me newspaper clippings the other day showing that my idea has potential and other things so that's nice and I have given him the task to get his contacts in our small city for hardware, auctions and rents and try to get more information about some cheapped out specs starting out as I don't want us to invest in with a lot of hardware/investment up front but rather reinvesting the profits and maintaing a clear transparency.

Do you think we should postpone this idea till 3-4 years (I am thinking so) honestly because I would love to build my own software and I am thinking that within these years I can try more pain points of other providers and build a list of the nice features I like (If you know of any, please let me know as well as I still am making the list)

I am not trying to achieve AI purposes at all but rather simple compute (even low-end compute starting out)

Power consumption comparison isn't that much of an issue I think

Honestly I am thinking that we should wait out this cycle of rising hardware so that the hardware prices can go down in the start of the next cycle but I am interested if NUC's would be good enough for my workflow as I can redirect my father more about it because I am not that expertised about the hardware side of things so much so I would really appreciate it if you can tell me more about it/what could be the best use cases for that?

I saw from your article that chic-fil-a uses intel nucs to run their kubernetes clusters so I am assuming that it can be good enough for my use case as well?

Also, there is no guarantee that I end up doing it and its still more so an idea than anything and as I would probably do some projections to see if its worth it and a lot of other things before we get ourselfs some basic cheap equipment to even start and If we do we would probably start out with homelabbing equipment itself but just to be more clear, storage compactness isn't that big of a worry starting out as I think his office is good enough.

Honestly right now, In my understanding Ram Prices are the ones which extremely kill the project and makes me want to reconsider the software side of things (to build things myself/learn more) for a few years so that we can then build the hardware. I think this is the way to go but talking to my father and he was super excited about it I am not exactly sure but still it might give him a few years of his spare time to be more familiar with the hardware side of auctions etc. that he can find us better deals etc. too so please share any advice that you (or anyone) has about it as I would love sharing it down to my father so he that can do some queries about somethings in the local markets / his contacts as well.

Re: Self-hosting is being enshittified

#68
> Self-hosting has always been hard, and it's not getting easier.

Oh yes it is. I already self hosted stuff back in 2000 and it was very hard. Then came docker and it is very simple now.

Sure "very simple" mean different things to different people, but if you self host you need to know a lot already.

This is somehiw similar to amateur electronics. You used to do 100% yourself from scratch. Now you have boards and you can start in z much simpler way.

Re: Self-hosting is being enshittified

#69

This blog seems to be from "that side" of the self-hosting world: the homelabbers. If you ask these people you need to buy expensive hardware and build your own datacenter at home. I have been hosting all my services on a single Intel Nuc from 10 years ago and a RPI5 as backup for critical services like DNS. That's it. You'll truly be amazed at how much stuff you can actually run on very little hardware if you only h…

A powerful enough machine (usually limited by RAM, not CPU) will let you run a hypervisor OS like Proxmox which helps a lot with making things secure and flexible. You might also want to have RAID, ECC memory. It quickly starts to make sense to build a proper home server rather than cobbling together a bunch of low end hardware. The tipping point is probably when you want more than 1-2 hard drives worth of storage.

Re: Self-hosting is being enshittified

#70
Hey, but what’s up with DDR3?

> Even old hardware isn't safe: DDR4 prices are also affected, so that tiny ThinkCentre M720 won't save us.

Most of my home infrastructure is DDR2 or DDR3. It’s plenty fast for quite a lot of things. I really don’t care whether some background operation takes five minutes or an hour. I rather care how little energy and heat that machine produces.

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