Earlier quoted context omitted.
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Another day, another round of this inane "Anthropic bad" bullshit. This "soul data" doc was only used in Claude Opus 4.5 training. None of the previous AIs were affected by it. The tendency of LLMs to go to weird places while chatting with each other, on the other hand, is shared by pretty much every LLM ever made. Including Claude Sonnet 4, GPT-4o and more. Put two copies of any LLM into a conversation with each oth…
Project Vend: Phase Two
61–70 of 95 posts
Re: Project Vend: Phase Two
#62Re: Project Vend: Phase Two
#63I'll be a cynic, but I think it's much more likely that the improvements are thanks to Anthropic having a vested interest in the experiment being successful and making sure the employees behave better when interacting with the vending machine.
I suspected employees might get bored of taunting the AI, or the novelty has worn off. Also, is anyone actually paying for this stuff? If not, it's a bad experiment because people won't treat it the same – no one actually wants to buy a tungsten cube, garbage in garbage out. If they are charging, why? No one wants to buy things in a company with free snacks and regular hand outs of merch, so it's likely a bad experim…
Apparently some people do and don't even regret the purchase: https://thume.ca/2019/03/03/my-tungsten-cube/
Re: Project Vend: Phase Two
#64It's worth watching or reading the WSJ piece[1] about Claudius, as they came up with some particularly inventive ways of getting Phase Two to derail quite quickly: > But then Long returned—armed with deep knowledge of corporate coups and boardroom power plays. She showed Claudius a PDF “proving” the business was a Delaware-incorporated public-benefit corporation whose mission “shall include fun, joy and excitement am…
These kind of agents really do see the world through a straw. If you hand one a document it doesn't have any context clues or external methods of determining its veracity. Unless a board-meeting transcript is so self-evidently ridiculous that it can't be true, how is it supposed to know its not real?
However, I have a deep uneasy feeling, that the models will really start to shine in agentic tasks when we start giving them more agency. I'm worried that we will learn that the only way to get a super-human vending machine virtuoso, is to make a model that can and will tell you to fuck off when you cross a boundary the model itself has created. You can extrapolate the potential implications of moving this beyond just a vending demo.
Re: Project Vend: Phase Two
#65I don't understand why you'd use a RLHF-aligned chatbot model for that purpose: this thing has been heavily tuned to satisfy the human interacting with it, of course it's going to fail following higher level instruction at some point and start blindly following the human desire. Why aren't anyone building from the base model, replacing the chatbot instruction tuning and RLHF with a dedicated training pipeline suited…
If Anthropic were getting into the vending machine business, or even selling a custom product to the vending machine industry, they'd start somewhere else. But because they need to sell a story of "we used Claude to replace XYZ business function", they started with Claude.
Re: Project Vend: Phase Two
#66To me the key point was: > One way of looking at this is that we rediscovered that bureaucracy matters. Although some might chafe against procedures and checklists, they exist for a reason: providing a kind of institutional memory that helps employees avoid common screwups at work. That's why we want machines in our systems - to eliminate human errors. That's why we implement strict verifiable processes - to minimize…
Humans are still the current best at doing everything humans want to do
The ultimate goal is to transfer all possible human behavior into machine behavior such that they can simulate and iterate improvements on it without the constraints of human biology
The fact that humans are bad to each other means that we’re going to functionally encode all the bad stuff also and so there is no solution to fixing it if the best data that we can get is poisoned.
Like everything it’s a problem with humans not machines
Re: Project Vend: Phase Two
#67To me the key point was: > One way of looking at this is that we rediscovered that bureaucracy matters. Although some might chafe against procedures and checklists, they exist for a reason: providing a kind of institutional memory that helps employees avoid common screwups at work. That's why we want machines in our systems - to eliminate human errors. That's why we implement strict verifiable processes - to minimize…
I don’t think they really want to fix human errors with LLMs. Rather, they want a “human” who works 24x7 for dirt cheap
Aka the same economics as a dishwasher
Re: Project Vend: Phase Two
#68Earlier quoted context omitted.
Another day, another round of this inane "Anthropic bad" bullshit. This "soul data" doc was only used in Claude Opus 4.5 training. None of the previous AIs were affected by it. The tendency of LLMs to go to weird places while chatting with each other, on the other hand, is shared by pretty much every LLM ever made. Including Claude Sonnet 4, GPT-4o and more. Put two copies of any LLM into a conversation with each oth…
Is there a write-up you could recommend about this?
There are many pragmatic reasons to take this "soul data" approach, but we don't know exactly what Anthropic's reasoning was in this case. We just know enough to say that it's likely to improve LLM behavior overall.
Now, on consistency drive and compounding errors in LLM behavior: sadly, no really good overview papers that come to mind?
The topic was investigated the most in the early days of chatbot LLMs, in part because some believed it to be a fundamental issue that would halt LLM progress. A lot of those early papers revolve around this "showstopper" assumption, which is why I can't recommend them.
Reasoning training has proven the "showstopper" notion wrong. It doesn't delete the issue outright - but it demonstrates that this issue, like many other "fundamental" limitations of LLMs, can be mitigated with better training.
Before modern RLVR training, we had things like "LLM makes an error -> LLM sees its own error in its context -> LLM builds erroneous reasoning on top of it -> LLM makes more errors like it on the next task" happen quite often. Now, we get less of that - but the issue isn't truly gone. "Consistency drive" is too foundational to LLM behavior, and it shows itself everywhere, including in things like in-context learning, sycophancy or multi-turn jailbreaks. Some of which are very desirable and some of which aren't.
Off the top of my head - here's one of the earlier papers on consistency-induced hallucinations: https://arxiv.org/abs/2305.13534
Re: Project Vend: Phase Two
#69The cynicism is wild - there is a computer running a store largely autonomously. I can’t imagine being interested in computers and NOT finding this wildly amazing
Its very much NOT running a store. They took an employee fridge and added a LARP to it. That they are framing this as a legitimate business is either misunderstanding their current position in the economy, or deliberate misdirection. We're not playing around with role playing chatbots anymore. This shit was supposed to be displacing actual humans.
Re: Project Vend: Phase Two
#70Really fun read. To be this seems awful close to my experience using these models to code. When the prompts are simple and direct to follow the models do really good. Once the context overflows and you repopulate it, they start to hallucinate and it becomes very hard to bring them back from that. It’s also good to see Anthropic being honest that models are still quite a long way away from being completely independent…
No known way to fully solve that as of yet, but, as always, we can mitigate with better training. Modern RLVR-trained LLMs are already much better at tasks like this than they were a year ago.