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What happened to all the gold Spain got from the New World? (1985)

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Re: What happened to all the gold Spain got from the New World? (1985)

#61

Post by gtech1 »

caminante wrote: post #58
gtech1 wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hah, and me who thought they only stole Romania's national treasure, under the guise of 'safekeeping'. I guess Russia has always been a shitty country.

Except you're leaving out two key facts: 1. National treasures (ex gold) were returned in '35 and '56. 2. Romania intervened against the Bolsheviks in Bessarabia. #2 seems like FAFO to me. And I'm sure some Romanians got kickbacks from the "transfers." Nobody forced Romania to transfer their assets.

You have no idea what you are talking about.

1. They never returned 92tons of gold. The vast majority of the national treasure is still in Moscow. I hope the EU ties this to the current Russian assets frozen in the EU.

2. Bolsheviks ? Russia collapsed in 1917 and Bassarabia voted to join Romania. There was no Russian control in Bassarabia, no war, no fight.

Nobody forced them, true, they were in dire circumstances, but it proves even more how much Russians can be trusted. 0. Shitty country since forever.

Re: What happened to all the gold Spain got from the New World? (1985)

#62

Post by the__alchemist »

lo_zamoyski wrote: post #53
the__alchemist wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Indeed. I believe the parent commenter should pause and assess why people buy things, and what makes something desirable or a luxury good. We can start with mechanical watches: They are of poorer quality by every utilitarian measure than a crystal-oscillator driven one, but command much higher prices and status.

> They are of poorer quality by every utilitarian measure than a crystal-oscillator driven one, but command much higher prices and status. But the value of the watch is not reducible to its value as a timekeeping device. (Even here, you could argue that the mechanical watch has more instrumental value as a timekeeping device where batteries are unavailable.) A mechanical watch has greater value as a mechanical watch…

Can you see how that elegant description you wrote could be applied to Gold?

Re: What happened to all the gold Spain got from the New World? (1985)

#63

Post by AlotOfReading »

anthk wrote: post #60
AlotOfReading wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It wasn't an arbitrage thing and I'm not sure there's anything fruitful in the comparison to saudi arabia. The Spanish Empire was, more than anything else, a product of the reconquista. The major institutions of Spain were all directed towards the taking and holding of new lands. When granada finally surrendered in 1492, the monarchy turned towards conquering the canaries and then the new world to avoid the large sca…

> The conquistadors and chroniclers all saw the Americas through the lens of the chivalric literature they loved. More like the opposite. The Golden Age of Spain was all about making fun on the knight from the "New Man" making wealth from the Americas. Heck, it's the main theme from Don Quixote. The old, idealistic, outdated, Medieval wannabe-knight (hidalgo meant hijo-de-algo, son of something, hereditary titles) vs…

Don Quixote came out nearly a century after Cortes and is often cited as specifically having killed the genre/culture it was parodying. Look at how much Diaz talks about Amadis with full seriousness.

Re: What happened to all the gold Spain got from the New World? (1985)

#64

Post by lazide »

cenamus wrote: post #30
HPsquared wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can't eat gold.

You also can't eat money, but I imagine it's pretty useful if you're hungry

If all the sudden someone airdrops a hundred tons of $100 bills into your area, you are going to have a hard time buying food with just the $20 in your wallet.

That is what is being discussed.

Re: What happened to all the gold Spain got from the New World? (1985)

#65

Post by ares623 »

throwup238 wrote: post #39
mcc1ane wrote: post #16

> The problem was that the conquest of the New World left Spain with a lot more money, but not that much more wealth, if you follow me. ELI5, please!

Spain’s colonies funneled huge amounts of gold and silver into the European economies without a complementary increase in productivity to absorb it, causing massive inflation. A ship for transatlantic shipping might have first cost 100,000 maravedí to build and equip before the treasure fleet expeditions, but afterwards with so much gold flowing into the economy and lots of competition for a limited ship building ind…

hold up a minute

Re: What happened to all the gold Spain got from the New World? (1985)

#66

Post by nradov »

rayiner wrote: post #34

> For the latter part of the 1500s and on into the 1600s Spain was a debtor nation, spending more abroad than it took in. The result was a net outflow of gold and silver. Attempts were made to restrict the export of precious metals, but without much success. In the end it all simply dribbled away. The problem was that the conquest of the New World left Spain with a lot more money, but not that much more wealth, if yo…

Nope. By any objective measure the USA has continued to organically generate enormous amounts of real wealth during that period. We have some issues with inequality and letting foreign countries take advantage of our trade policies but the new wealth is quite real.

Re: What happened to all the gold Spain got from the New World? (1985)

#67

Post by caminante »

gtech1 wrote: post #61
caminante wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except you're leaving out two key facts: 1. National treasures (ex gold) were returned in '35 and '56. 2. Romania intervened against the Bolsheviks in Bessarabia. #2 seems like FAFO to me. And I'm sure some Romanians got kickbacks from the "transfers." Nobody forced Romania to transfer their assets.

You have no idea what you are talking about. 1. They never returned 92tons of gold. The vast majority of the national treasure is still in Moscow. I hope the EU ties this to the current Russian assets frozen in the EU. 2. Bolsheviks ? Russia collapsed in 1917 and Bassarabia voted to join Romania. There was no Russian control in Bassarabia, no war, no fight. Nobody forced them, true, they were in dire circumstances, b…

Please read again and calm down.

I expressly said "ex gold."

>Bolsheviks ?

Lmao. Where are you getting these falses premises?

1. Who rose to power after Russia collapsed in 2017?

2. There was no Bolshevik fighting or presence in Bessarabia?

3. Romania didn't intervene to fight Bolsheviks in Bessarabia?

You must be hallucinating to think otherwise.[0]

[0]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romanian_military_intervention...

Re: What happened to all the gold Spain got from the New World? (1985)

#69

Post by anthk »

AlotOfReading wrote: post #63
anthk wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The conquistadors and chroniclers all saw the Americas through the lens of the chivalric literature they loved. More like the opposite. The Golden Age of Spain was all about making fun on the knight from the "New Man" making wealth from the Americas. Heck, it's the main theme from Don Quixote. The old, idealistic, outdated, Medieval wannabe-knight (hidalgo meant hijo-de-algo, son of something, hereditary titles) vs…

Don Quixote came out nearly a century after Cortes and is often cited as specifically having killed the genre/culture it was parodying. Look at how much Diaz talks about Amadis with full seriousness.

I would like to think that the New World self-building travelling pragmathism killed the epic born maybe from the Reconquista epics and of course from El Cid.

It's like finding New York policemen devouring dime novels around the Far West and believing themselves as lonely, macho gunslingers...

In the end the 70's cop movies aren't that different to a Western movie, but they still look a bit rusty compared to a Charles Bronson movie with slight detective skills where a bit of slow pace and thinkering it's needed and most of the old rural tropes wouldn't apply to a big city.

A similar thing would be comparing the Medieval Spain tactics against the post-Spain birth ones where guns were becoming to be the norm, such as the Arcabuz.

The old men in knight novels fought for their own good cause, but the New World men where just about the profit and trade. Coming back to Spain with goods was far more 'secure' than getting your life threatened by Mesoamerican tribes everyday. I mean, if you got the goods and avoided any fight, the better. It would be the most rational thing to do for the times. Specially without advanced medicine.

Meanwhile, it's obvious that the old Quixotic man wasn't afraid of death, but the new pragmatic Spaniard would have for sure a different mindset. Still a Catholic, but he would value far more its life once he was aware that some of his neighbours could improve their life in a trip and actually have some terrenal, tangible, REAL goods to enjoy instead of being tied to a farm or the fields and maybe just religion and the paradise as a relief.

Your values could quickly shift once you turned back to Spain loaded as hell with spices -very valuable for the time-, salt, exotic fruits, gold and who knows what. That and the incipient technology. Windmills? Guns? Far better ships? To hell with the hoe.

Re: What happened to all the gold Spain got from the New World? (1985)

#70

Post by ijk »

goodcanadian wrote: post #31
mcc1ane wrote: post #16

> The problem was that the conquest of the New World left Spain with a lot more money, but not that much more wealth, if you follow me. ELI5, please!

As a sibling comment said, gold was effectively money. Having more money, without having more products to buy, effectively triggered massive inflation. Prices went up, but the actual supply of goods and services didn't change much. The Spanish economy suffered massive inflation, as did Europe in general to a lessor extent.

It's interesting that mining gold and silver is similar to printing more money; we usually think of inflation as represented by debasing coinage but there's been a few circumstances where flooding the local economy with precious metals is the same effect.
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