Earlier quoted context omitted.
So there are papers. There are studies on tons and tons of things. One of the things you learn really studying science is that there are always papers, and you really have to immerse yourself in a field to see what’s actually happening. People who believe in chemtrails need to prove that the it’s being done, is being done at industrial scale (not just a few one off experiments), and that this is harmful to human heal…
I've never taken much of an interest in the chemtrail thing, but it does seem funny that governments are proposing to do more or less the same thing they denied doing! I can't see this being the answer though. Maybe I'm wrong, but it wouldn't be the first time environmental measures have proven destructive. Some of the most invasive pests have been brought in to control a less invasive ones e.g. cane toads in Austral…
Contrails Map
61–70 of 75 posts
Re: Contrails Map
#62Earlier quoted context omitted.
>The CO2 emitted by aircraft only causes about half the climate impact of aviation. The other half comes from contrails— artificial clouds that are created by soot in the engine exhaust. Then what does that mean? I find it strange. Clouds happen naturally. Contrails are mini clouds (literally a cloud chamber), are we saying that all those “chemtrails” are pollution? Or are we saying the unspent fuel particulate insid…
> I find it strange. Clouds happen naturally. Contrails are mini clouds (literally a cloud chamber), are we saying that all those “chemtrails” are pollution? Estimating radiative forcing is about measuring relative to a baseline. Here, the baseline is a world with no contrails. When you introduce contrails, you're introducing cloudy volumes predominantly made of ice crystals and occurring very high in the atmosphere.…
As for contrails, if they're likely to form in certain areas and not others, what's that coefficient? is it the moisture content? is it the jet fuel mixture? Since you say the Contrails program helps predict when these might occur, is that data being used to alter cruise paths?
It's been 20 years since I was a student at College so forgive me when I ask these questions. My grandfather flew bombers and my father flew fighters so I've known about exhaust and pollution from aircraft for a long time. I know the older aircraft pollute and the contrails from bombers (my grandfather had some stories) were an awful mix of frozen water vapor and diesel exhaust. Modern commercial jets are a lot more efficient.
Any route (with the exception of the SIDS and STARS) is charted across airways to the most direct route possible. Right?
Re: Contrails Map
#63It states that half of aircraft pollution is from contrails made of aircraft soot. I’d like to see the literature and discovery of aircraft soot. As an engineer who has built aircraft, I find this fascinating. I would like to measure my amount of soot. How does one go about measuring how much soot I have? Obviously if my exhaust ports are black that’s bad but I’m genuinely curious about this as I’ve always assumed “b…
Fly less. Is waiting a week for a package really that big of a deal? Is traveling less really that much to ask? It’s totally ok to be skeptical of the claims. I can’t make a judgement on them as I know even less than you might. But that’s not a reason to doubt that human’s environment impact matters and that maybe part of the solution is for those of us with access to 2day delivery for everything and cheap flights li…
I'm currently on dating apps and the amount of people who define their personalities by their travel habits is staggering.
Re: Contrails Map
#64Earlier quoted context omitted.
> I find it strange. Clouds happen naturally. Contrails are mini clouds (literally a cloud chamber), are we saying that all those “chemtrails” are pollution? Estimating radiative forcing is about measuring relative to a baseline. Here, the baseline is a world with no contrails. When you introduce contrails, you're introducing cloudy volumes predominantly made of ice crystals and occurring very high in the atmosphere.…
Finally some science, ok cool. So we're basing this on the baseline of no contrails what-so-ever. We measure the radiative photons? of the light refracting? through it and see it's long-wave radiation channeling properties scatter it rather than allow it through to relieve the earth's heat? As for contrails, if they're likely to form in certain areas and not others, what's that coefficient? is it the moisture content…
Re: Contrails Map
#65Below is a comprehensive list of geoengineering-related patents, compiled to the best of my knowledge. Based on the language and scope of several of these patents, their stated purposes do not appear to be inherently human-friendly in any form as the language escalates from weather influence to planetary irradiation, artificial plasmas, relativistic particles, atmospheric weapons-scale energy systems, and even the ge…
The fact that someone has filed a patent doesn't mean that they have a workable idea, only that they can formulate and illustrate said idea and that it doesn't overlap with something that already exists.
But are you saying none of those patents are even indirectly related to publicly documented programs like:
1. Operation Sea-Spray (1950)
2. Operation LAC (late 1950s–60s)
3. Operation Dew (ZnCdS tests)
We know these tests only became public decades later through hearings and declassification. Given that history, it seems fair to ask how much related research or enabling tech might still be classified. Lack of a clear public link doesn't really prove there wasn't one - it may just mean it hasn't been disclosed yet.Re: Contrails Map
#66Earlier quoted context omitted.
Fly less. Is waiting a week for a package really that big of a deal? Is traveling less really that much to ask? It’s totally ok to be skeptical of the claims. I can’t make a judgement on them as I know even less than you might. But that’s not a reason to doubt that human’s environment impact matters and that maybe part of the solution is for those of us with access to 2day delivery for everything and cheap flights li…
> Is traveling less really that much to ask? I'm currently on dating apps and the amount of people who define their personalities by their travel habits is staggering.
then you look at most of their profiles and it's the same handful of tourist photos or them paying to take a photo, basically. travel is just another status symbol thing to a lot of people. they do the same things they see on social media. it's weird. it's just another way of showing how much money you can spend on frivolous* stuff. "30 countries by 30" and stuff like that.
the dog version of it is huskies. every one has a husky in their apartment. there are like 3-4 breeds that every woman in a city/urban area has. so weird.
*not saying travel is frivolous. I'm saying the modern stereotypical version of it is very conforming and repetitive.
the annoying thing is if someone were to ever say, in the real world, that maybe this version of travel isn't worth the damage to the environment, they would most likely get labeled an asshole or something. a "downer" or someone who is a "hater", or they are "ruining the vibe". more and more often "the vibe" is just an excuse to engage in crazy excess consumption that we label as "self care".
lol sorry to go off on this. it's just so weird how we've twisted these things around as a culture/society.
Re: Contrails Map
#67Earlier quoted context omitted.
> I find it strange. Clouds happen naturally. Contrails are mini clouds (literally a cloud chamber), are we saying that all those “chemtrails” are pollution? Estimating radiative forcing is about measuring relative to a baseline. Here, the baseline is a world with no contrails. When you introduce contrails, you're introducing cloudy volumes predominantly made of ice crystals and occurring very high in the atmosphere.…
Finally some science, ok cool. So we're basing this on the baseline of no contrails what-so-ever. We measure the radiative photons? of the light refracting? through it and see it's long-wave radiation channeling properties scatter it rather than allow it through to relieve the earth's heat? As for contrails, if they're likely to form in certain areas and not others, what's that coefficient? is it the moisture content…
There are many different avenues you could pursue to estimate this, with different degrees of complexity and they all boil down to a radiative transfer calculation. You could start with an idealized, single-column model using a very simple approximation like a 2-stream approach, crudely parameterizing how a few bulk properties of a cloud in the column would influence the estimate of radiative balance at the top of the atmosphere. Such a model would let you explore a huge variety of factors.
To get more into the world of "real climate", you'd eventually scale up to an atmosphere model with a more complex 3D radiative transfer scheme, probably with more complex cloud microphysical representation and interactions with radiation. This still lets you do idealized experiments.
The next step up, you'd do what the DeepMind and Contrails teams have done, which is to use a standard Earth System Model ("climate model"). That just builds the complexity, and allows you to study realistic scenarios with counterfactuals (e.g. with or without additional contrail formation due to aviation). It's still going to be parameterized in some sense.
Ultimately, we'd look at real-world data top-of-atmosphere radiative estimates, which we conveniently measure from a variety of satellites (CERES would be the most well-known one). The problem is that we can't study the counter-factual very easily in the real world. We get a few isolated cases (like the aviation pause over CONUS after 9/11, or the global decrease in aviation during COVID), but there's so much inherent noise (from weather) that it's hard to infer any causality; you'd likely end up using that climate model from the last part to simulate the counterfactual in a weather scenario nudged to reproduce the real-world observations you have.
This would make a great Masters thesis, or maybe a slice of a PhD, but it's not much more complex than that.
> As for contrails, if they're likely to form in certain areas and not others, what's that coefficient? is it the moisture content? is it the jet fuel mixture? Since you say the Contrails program helps predict when these might occur, is that data being used to alter cruise paths?
It's the ambient thermodynamic and kinematic parameters. Namely, background water vapor and temperature, combined with local kinetic energy in the form of turbulence that you need to drive very local supersaturation. Given those parameters, different distributions of gases and particulates emitted from a jet engine may be more or less effective at nucleating ice - if the conditions are even right to do so.
It's worth pointing out that it's _very_ hard to capture these background conditions in weather models, hence why a major part of the DeepMind/Contrails project have been to use machine learning to try to constrain background circulation patterns most consistent with contrail develop as evidenced by high-resolution remote sensing and imagery. Some of the earliest work they did was to use these types of tools to generate data that allow us to better parameterize contrail formation in numerical weather/climate models, which is why they're able to turn this into a predictive and actionable problem.
Otherwise, there's an 80-year literature on this topic. I encourage you to read it. Kärcher's review paper in Nature in 2018 is a good starting point (https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-018-04068-0).
> Any route (with the exception of the SIDS and STARS) is charted across airways to the most direct route possible. Right?
I'm not an expert in aviation route planning, but from personal experience I know that many other factors come into play with routing (namely avoiding weather, limiting time spent extremely remote / far away from airport or other infrastructure, traffic / network congestion, etc).
Re: Contrails Map
#68Earlier quoted context omitted.
Finally some science, ok cool. So we're basing this on the baseline of no contrails what-so-ever. We measure the radiative photons? of the light refracting? through it and see it's long-wave radiation channeling properties scatter it rather than allow it through to relieve the earth's heat? As for contrails, if they're likely to form in certain areas and not others, what's that coefficient? is it the moisture content…
> Finally some science, ok cool. So we're basing this on the baseline of no contrails what-so-ever. We measure the radiative photons? of the light refracting? through it and see it's long-wave radiation channeling properties scatter it rather than allow it through to relieve the earth's heat? There are many different avenues you could pursue to estimate this, with different degrees of complexity and they all boil dow…
Re: Contrails Map
#69Earlier quoted context omitted.
The fact that someone has filed a patent doesn't mean that they have a workable idea, only that they can formulate and illustrate said idea and that it doesn't overlap with something that already exists.
Totally agree, a patent by itself doesn't prove something was built or used, just that the idea could be described and cleared prior art. But are you saying none of those patents are even indirectly related to publicly documented programs like: 1. Operation Sea-Spray (1950) 2. Operation LAC (late 1950s–60s) 3. Operation Dew (ZnCdS tests) We know these tests only became public decades later through hearings and declas…