Auto Dealers Whine That Tesla Stores Are Illegal • Hacker News Board

Re: Auto Dealers Whine That Tesla Stores Are Illegal

#61

Post by travisp » Tue, Oct 09, 2012, 2:48 PM UTC

ImprovedSilence wrote: post #59

travisp wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Under most rankings of economic freedom, the United States barely manages to be in the top 10. The Heritage Foundation places Hong Kong, Singapore, Australia, New Zealand, Switzerland, Canada, Chile, Mauritius, and Ireland all above the United States on their Index of Economic Freedom. Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Index_of_Economic_Freedom

Doesn't Australia have hideously terrible internet regulations? I guess that wouldn't fall under economic freedom...

A lot of nations have hideously terrible regulations in some area, and comparing such regulations in an index like this is of course subjective to some extent. It's also not a measure of all freedoms (otherwise, Singapore wouldn't be so high). It's intentionally only looking at economic freedom, which is relevant to the comment I was replying to (and as far as I can tell, the index is not trying to imply that these are the only freedoms that matter).

Re: Auto Dealers Whine That Tesla Stores Are Illegal

#62

Post by jmj42 » Tue, Oct 09, 2012, 2:48 PM UTC

jetti wrote: post #23

talmand wrote: post #11

"Oh no! It's a new business model that is different than our old business model! We must use legal means to stop it immediately because we don't know yet if we can compete with it!" Plus, customers may like it better since the current method is usually despised...

There is no competition to be had. The dealerships aren't scared of competition from Tesla, especially since the price of a Tesla Model S is out of range for the majority of car buyers. What they are scared of is that Tesla sets a precedence for other manufacturers to follow suit which would then put a lot of people out of work.

>What they are scared of is that Tesla sets a precedence for other manufacturers to follow suit which would then put a lot of people out of work.

No. What they're afraid of is that Tesla sets a precedence for other manufacturers to follow suit which would then move revenue out of the dealer's reach. Or: It's not about jobs, it's about money.

Re: Auto Dealers Whine That Tesla Stores Are Illegal

#63

Post by icebraining » Tue, Oct 09, 2012, 2:48 PM UTC

w1ntermute wrote: post #43

jwr wrote: post #20

Today I found out that USA (arguably the most libertarian country on earth, as far as business is concerned) has strict laws governing the sale of vehicles, said laws actually preventing companies from selling vehicles. I find that quite amazing.

> arguably the most libertarian country on earth, as far as business is concerned Ahahaha, I hope you're joking. The US isn't even close to being libertarian. The American economic system isn't based on capitalism, it's based on corporatism and regulatory capture.

Yes, but aren't other countries even less libertarian?

Re: Auto Dealers Whine That Tesla Stores Are Illegal

#64

Post by chucknelson » Tue, Oct 09, 2012, 2:50 PM UTC

randomdata wrote: post #49

cs702 wrote: post #3

Anyone who's ever bought a car knows firsthand how unpleasant it is to deal with traditional car dealers. The price of every vehicle is fully negotiable but the negotiating room is opaque.[1] Key car features and options are bundled in arbitrary packages and priced in ways that make pricing even more opaque. Car salesmen (they're typically men) almost always have a fake smile on their face and come across as smooth-t…

I kind of enjoyed buying my last vehicle. For some reason, the salesman had it in his mind that I could not afford the one I was looking at. I was the one trying to talk him into adding options, while he was trying to take them away to keep the costs lower. Once I finally talked him into the one I wanted, he, without asking, starts filling out the loan application. I'm like "umm, I'm going to be paying for it in cash…

I've always heard that you get a better price if you tell them you're paying in cash...is this just bad info?

Re: Auto Dealers Whine That Tesla Stores Are Illegal

#65

Post by noarchy » Tue, Oct 09, 2012, 2:50 PM UTC

The legal protection afforded to cartels is just astounding. I think just yesterday the front page of HN was talking about the taxi cartels, and their efforts to use the law to prevent competition. And now this? As others here have already pointed out, this doesn't really resemble the free market that the US is alleged to have.

Re: Auto Dealers Whine That Tesla Stores Are Illegal

#66

Post by btilly » Tue, Oct 09, 2012, 2:50 PM UTC

talmand wrote: post #16

cs702 wrote: post #3

Anyone who's ever bought a car knows firsthand how unpleasant it is to deal with traditional car dealers. The price of every vehicle is fully negotiable but the negotiating room is opaque.[1] Key car features and options are bundled in arbitrary packages and priced in ways that make pricing even more opaque. Car salesmen (they're typically men) almost always have a fake smile on their face and come across as smooth-t…

It can be a rather unpleasant experience, plus it makes me feel bad to immediately hate the person before I get to know his/her style of selling. I know it's unfair but when that salesperson walks up I'm immediately "just go away and leave me alone". Plus the sad fact is that the salesperson is the middleman of the manager, who is the middleman of the financier, who is the middleman of the dealership. There are proba…

Why can't cars be sold just like any other product?

If you want to walk in, look at a sticker, and walk out with your new car, you should visit a Saturn dealership.

Unless they changed it recently, they never haggle.

Re: Auto Dealers Whine That Tesla Stores Are Illegal

#67

Post by w1ntermute » Tue, Oct 09, 2012, 2:50 PM UTC

freehunter wrote: post #22

tomrod wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Only 3? I figured Radioshack/Bestbuy belong in this category in the long run. Would be interesting discussion on what industries denizens of HN think will fall in this manner.

Radio Shack made themselves obsolete. I don't think Best Buy is obsolete, but merely needs a restructuring. Radio Shack used to be great when you were working on a project and just needed one more part; a capacitor, a motor/servo, a PIC, etc. I don't need another phone reseller, I don't need useless RC cars, I don't need odd TV remotes. I need an electronics store that sells electronic parts. Best Buy is great for re…

> Best Buy is great for researching your purchases. I can read reviews of a laptop online, but I can't feel it, feel the build quality or the keyboard, I can't test the viewing angle. I can read reviews of TVs, but I can't see the picture quality, I can't hear the speakers. I can't ask questions and get answer immediately. Best Buy is great for this.

Sounds like you just need an Amazon showroom. A hell of a lot cheaper to run, and a hell of a lot less annoying pimply teenage employees trying to sell you accessories and extended warranties.

Re: Auto Dealers Whine That Tesla Stores Are Illegal

#68

Post by w1ntermute » Tue, Oct 09, 2012, 2:52 PM UTC

icebraining wrote: post #63

w1ntermute wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> arguably the most libertarian country on earth, as far as business is concerned Ahahaha, I hope you're joking. The US isn't even close to being libertarian. The American economic system isn't based on capitalism, it's based on corporatism and regulatory capture.

Yes, but aren't other countries even less libertarian?

According to two major economic freedom indices[0][1], the US is ranked 18th and 10th, respectively, worldwide. So no, I wouldn't say that the US is the "most libertarian country in the world".

0: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_Freedom_of_the_World

1: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Index_of_Economic_Freedom

Re: Auto Dealers Whine That Tesla Stores Are Illegal

#69

Post by creamyhorror » Tue, Oct 09, 2012, 2:53 PM UTC

camiller wrote: post #31

jakubp wrote: post #6

I'm confused. Is this article saying that in the US it's illegal for a maker of the product to sell the product to whomever he wants? How is that helping anyone but the dealerships?

Say for example there are five Chevy dealerships in the greater Omaha area. If General Motors were allowed to own one itself it could give itself discounts internally such that it could undersell the other dealers and put them out of business. Once the competition was gone it could then raise prices harming consumers. Competition is good for consumers and the laws in question are aimed at protecting consumers. Yes I…

"If Apple were allowed to sell its own products itself, it could undersell other dealers and put them out of business...

Yes I know they are also competing with other brands, but some people are brand loyal enough that they would not switch to Android or Windows Phone."

Re: Auto Dealers Whine That Tesla Stores Are Illegal

#70

Post by TylerE » Tue, Oct 09, 2012, 2:53 PM UTC

chucknelson wrote: post #64

randomdata wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I kind of enjoyed buying my last vehicle. For some reason, the salesman had it in his mind that I could not afford the one I was looking at. I was the one trying to talk him into adding options, while he was trying to take them away to keep the costs lower. Once I finally talked him into the one I wanted, he, without asking, starts filling out the loan application. I'm like "umm, I'm going to be paying for it in cash…

I've always heard that you get a better price if you tell them you're paying in cash...is this just bad info?

Bad info.

They make money on the financing, so are likely to be more willing to negotiate on price if they think they will make it back on the financing.

Doesn't mean you can't can't _pay_ cash, but 95% of dealers you don't want to be too upfront about that.