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Egyptian Hieroglyphs: Lesson 1

egyptianhieroglyphs.net

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Re: Egyptian Hieroglyphs: Lesson 1

#61

I've read that by the end of ancient Egyptian history they had used tricks like a picture of an eye for the letter or sound 'I' or a picture of a bee for the sound of 'B' there was a complete alphabet embedded within the system. To be literate you had to know the tricks from the ancient and middle kingdoms as well. The result was three complete alphabets, similar to modern Japanese. From that point of view the invent…

That's a rather confused account of the matter.

The rebus principle where someone might use a depiction of an eye for the sound "I" and so forth is the very basis of the script and was there from the beginning. The complicated part is they'd use words with one to three consonants and strip the vowels. To continue the example, we might use 𓃠 to represent the consonants "ct" and thus use it to write "cat", "cot", and "cut."

There was an inventory of uniconsonantal or uniliteral signs dating back to the very beginning of the language which the ancient Egyptians could have used as an alphabet (or abjad if we want to be pedantic) if they had wanted to, but they never did—at least to write Egyptian. The basis of our alphabet, Proto-Sinaitic script, seems to have come about when speakers of Caananite languages in the Sinai Peninsula borrowed a small number of Egyptian hieroglyphs, assigned them the phonetic value for the thing depicted in their own Caananite language, and they didn't bother with anything other than uniconsonantal signs.

The "three different alphabets" thing is unrelated to any of this. Hieroglyphs and hieratic appear around the same time. Hieroglyphs were used for monuments and more formal contexts. Hieratic is a cursive form of hieroglyphs that was much faster to write with a brush pen and ink. It tended to be used for literature, correspondence, and record-keeping. From what we know of Egyptian scribal education, they started out with hieratic and then moved on to hieroglyphs, with not everyone progressing to the point where they started learning hieroglyphs. This is quite the reversal from how we approach things today, with virtually every student of ancient Egyptian language learning hieroglyphs (specifically, Middle Egyptian) first and then moving on to learning hieratic. Demotic was a later evolution of hieratic. And eventually, the Egyptians wrote their language using a modified Greek alphabet ultimately derived from their hieroglyphs (Coptic).

Re: Egyptian Hieroglyphs: Lesson 1

#62

Don't trust the pronunciation: To quote the great egyptologist Frank Kammerzell: “Da die Vokalisation ägyptischen Sprachmaterials aus vorkoptischer Zeit nicht annähernd vollständig zu rekonstruieren ist, hat es sich eingebürgert, eine künstlich konstruierte Hilfsaussprache zu benutzen, die keinerlei sprachhistorischen Eigenwert besitzt. Selbst die in den allermeisten Fällen jegliche Authentizität entbehrende Aussprac…

Different field, but it drives me crazy that people talk about Chinese philosophy and insist on using Mandarin pinyin for it. Mandarin is language that evolved from Classical Chinese thousands of years later! There are other, equally valid contemporary derived pronunciations like Cantonese or even Japanese and Korean. The reason to use Mandarin is because it is the most widely spoken language derived from Classical C…

That's like complaining at names like Jesus, Paul, Moses, or Peter (with their English pronunciation) because that's not how those biblical figures pronounced their own names.

Re: Egyptian Hieroglyphs: Lesson 1

#63
post #5

> You might have noticed that there aren’t any vowels in the alphabet Then in the next table: > 𓄿 is pronounced “ah” as in “yacht” > 𓇋 is pronounced “ee” as in “feet” > 𓅱 𓏲 is pronounced “oo” as in “blue” Are those vowel-sounding hieroglyphs only used in special occasions? Also, does anyone know what the reason for omitting vowels altogether may have been?

>𓄿 is pronounced “ah” as in “yacht”

even more interestingly, it's pronounced like the "ach" in yacht

Re: Egyptian Hieroglyphs: Lesson 1

#65
post #5

> You might have noticed that there aren’t any vowels in the alphabet Then in the next table: > 𓄿 is pronounced “ah” as in “yacht” > 𓇋 is pronounced “ee” as in “feet” > 𓅱 𓏲 is pronounced “oo” as in “blue” Are those vowel-sounding hieroglyphs only used in special occasions? Also, does anyone know what the reason for omitting vowels altogether may have been?

It's like this for most of the "vowelless" languages. Hebrew, for instance, still has alef and ayin, and depending on whose lessons you go with, they can be described as silent letters or vowels, or just sort of ignored because no one really wants to explain them. And if they're anything like our own alphabet, the answers have changed over the years as pronunciation itself may have changed. Dumb question for you... i…

Originally the aleph was intended to be merely a placeholder for a missing consonant at the beginning of a word, which effectively made it look like something representing (any) vowel.

Re: Egyptian Hieroglyphs: Lesson 1

#66

Don't trust the pronunciation: To quote the great egyptologist Frank Kammerzell: “Da die Vokalisation ägyptischen Sprachmaterials aus vorkoptischer Zeit nicht annähernd vollständig zu rekonstruieren ist, hat es sich eingebürgert, eine künstlich konstruierte Hilfsaussprache zu benutzen, die keinerlei sprachhistorischen Eigenwert besitzt. Selbst die in den allermeisten Fällen jegliche Authentizität entbehrende Aussprac…

Different field, but it drives me crazy that people talk about Chinese philosophy and insist on using Mandarin pinyin for it. Mandarin is language that evolved from Classical Chinese thousands of years later! There are other, equally valid contemporary derived pronunciations like Cantonese or even Japanese and Korean. The reason to use Mandarin is because it is the most widely spoken language derived from Classical C…

It's just the standard. So it self ratifies. It is quite possibly one of the worst options though given how many important language features are lost in it.

Cantonese used to be the preferred, and probably is to some, but even that is far from ideal and was chosen because while it preserves more important distinctions, it also happens to be/have been a very prominent Chinese language, with a moderate level of standardisation. It wasn't chosen purely on its linguistuc merits over others.

I can't remember who it was but there's someone out there who uses a fusion of Cantonese and Hokkien, where they pronounce the initial from one and then the coda from the other or something, though I can't remember which way around they did it.

Really depends on your priorities I guess.

Re: Egyptian Hieroglyphs: Lesson 1

#68
post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Different field, but it drives me crazy that people talk about Chinese philosophy and insist on using Mandarin pinyin for it. Mandarin is language that evolved from Classical Chinese thousands of years later! There are other, equally valid contemporary derived pronunciations like Cantonese or even Japanese and Korean. The reason to use Mandarin is because it is the most widely spoken language derived from Classical C…

That's like complaining at names like Jesus, Paul, Moses, or Peter (with their English pronunciation) because that's not how those biblical figures pronounced their own names.

After the present Pope had given his inaugural speech in several languages except for English, apparently someone (on Fox News?) complained, "what? no English? It was good enough for Jesus why doesn't he speak English!?"

The horrible part of this story is that it's so believable.

Re: Egyptian Hieroglyphs: Lesson 1

#69
post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's like complaining at names like Jesus, Paul, Moses, or Peter (with their English pronunciation) because that's not how those biblical figures pronounced their own names.

After the present Pope had given his inaugural speech in several languages except for English, apparently someone (on Fox News?) complained, "what? no English? It was good enough for Jesus why doesn't he speak English!?" The horrible part of this story is that it's so believable.

Wasn't it the POTUS who said this?

Re: Egyptian Hieroglyphs: Lesson 1

#70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Old Chinese reconstructions drive me crazy, or the fact that some scholars insist these are 99% correct instead of 'best guesses'

They are pretty well founded. You can read old rhyme dictionaries and see how the words evolved eg when borrowed by Japan at one time and then when borrowed again a couple of hundred years later. We can’t ever know 100% but it’s not idle speculation either.

Rhyme dictionaries describe Middle Chinese, not Old Chinese. Old Chinese involves much more guesswork.
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