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Gut bacteria from amphibians and reptiles achieve tumor elimination in mice

jaist.ac.jp

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Re: Gut bacteria from amphibians and reptiles achieve tumor elimination in mice

#61

Post by bruce511 »

tombert wrote: post #55
johnwheeler wrote: post #54

I have never once seen a promising cancer treatment I've heard of on the news help people. You hear about the breakthrough treatments all the time, but when people get cancer, all you ever hear about is people getting chemotherapy and radiation. Same old scary shit. Well, I guess Leukemia has been somewhat cured I heard, so that's pretty huge. When I was a kid it was a death sentence IIRC.

I'm not a doctor, but in some fairness, I think there has been a lot of progress in chemotherapy and radiation. "Increasing 5-year-survivability by 0.5%" doesn't make a fun sexy headline, but that's still an achievement that required a lot of hard work and enough of those happening still adds up. I agree with your overall point though; it's a little annoying that every few weeks we hear about a new experiment that se…

"Cancer" is a term that covers a lot of diseases. So there is a lot of research going into a lot of different things, and hence lots of announcements.

"Chemotherapy" again is a loaded term covering a lot of different drugs, drug combinations, protocols and so on. So yeah, a lot of cancer treatment us "chemo" - but today's chemo is far removed from 2000 chemo.

5 year survivability has increased tremendously over the last decades. We're not talking 0.5% here, breast cancer for example has gone from 72% to 93%. Early detection of prostrate cancer has near 100% survivability.

But you're right, improving survivability doesn't make for sexy headlines. Yes there's a social media appetite for "breakthroughs", but the underlying "boring" stuff is doing well, and getting better all the time. It's just not "news".

Re: Gut bacteria from amphibians and reptiles achieve tumor elimination in mice

#62

Post by mcmoor »

johnwheeler wrote: post #54

I have never once seen a promising cancer treatment I've heard of on the news help people. You hear about the breakthrough treatments all the time, but when people get cancer, all you ever hear about is people getting chemotherapy and radiation. Same old scary shit. Well, I guess Leukemia has been somewhat cured I heard, so that's pretty huge. When I was a kid it was a death sentence IIRC.

There's also AIDS that I heard have been practically cured. Since then I have became less pessimistic about drug progress

Re: Gut bacteria from amphibians and reptiles achieve tumor elimination in mice

#63

Post by Smileyferret »

Interesting article, but in the full paper their key figure (Fig 2) shows their treatment group of n=3 mice completely responded to the bacterial treatment, but their methods say they treated n=5 mice? Could be an honest mistake but that’s a little concerning for data manipulation.

Also agree that using a PD-L1 mab feels like it’s for show especially considering the cancer model they’re using (Colon-26) was shown to be substantially less responsive to PD-L1 inhibitors…

Not the world’s best paper imo

Re: Gut bacteria from amphibians and reptiles achieve tumor elimination in mice

#64

Post by asdff »

johnwheeler wrote: post #54

I have never once seen a promising cancer treatment I've heard of on the news help people. You hear about the breakthrough treatments all the time, but when people get cancer, all you ever hear about is people getting chemotherapy and radiation. Same old scary shit. Well, I guess Leukemia has been somewhat cured I heard, so that's pretty huge. When I was a kid it was a death sentence IIRC.

Keytruda (pembrolizumab) has been pretty monumental.

Re: Gut bacteria from amphibians and reptiles achieve tumor elimination in mice

#65

Post by z3t4 »

3eb7988a1663 wrote: post #22
colordrops wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's the difference between a good and not-good reason to not go to market?

Prevalence of the disease - if it only impacts 1/100 million, going to be hard to ever find sufficient patient population to test and recoup your investment. Existing quality of treatments - if there are already efficacious drugs on the market - how sure are you that this new therapy will be best in class? Only being as good as the status quo is not an ideal competitive position. Conversely, if there is an unmet need…

Also the ethically in blind studies, can't just let some random patients die just to prove that your drug works.

Re: Gut bacteria from amphibians and reptiles achieve tumor elimination in mice

#66

Post by colordrops »

3eb7988a1663 wrote: post #22
colordrops wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's the difference between a good and not-good reason to not go to market?

Prevalence of the disease - if it only impacts 1/100 million, going to be hard to ever find sufficient patient population to test and recoup your investment. Existing quality of treatments - if there are already efficacious drugs on the market - how sure are you that this new therapy will be best in class? Only being as good as the status quo is not an ideal competitive position. Conversely, if there is an unmet need…

I guess I'm not being clear. Are these examples of "good" or "bad" reasons to not go to market? I assume "good"? If so, what would be an example of "bad"? Or vice versa if your meaning was opposite.

Re: Gut bacteria from amphibians and reptiles achieve tumor elimination in mice

#67

Post by nine_k »

Smileyferret wrote: post #63

Interesting article, but in the full paper their key figure (Fig 2) shows their treatment group of n=3 mice completely responded to the bacterial treatment, but their methods say they treated n=5 mice? Could be an honest mistake but that’s a little concerning for data manipulation. Also agree that using a PD-L1 mab feels like it’s for show especially considering the cancer model they’re using (Colon-26) was shown to…

Still the idea is beautiful. Since tumors are oxygen-deficient and suppress the immune response, anaerobic bacteria would proliferate there, and wreak havoc, while in the healthy parts of the organism they would be rapidly eliminated. Additionally, since the bacteria accumulate in the tumor, and the immune system has just responded to their invasion, T-cells will flock to the tumor, destroying what remains of it in due course.

As they say, "the fame of a mathematician is measured by the number of poor papers", because pioneering works are often awkward, treading completely unknown ground. Maybe the same applies to biology sometimes?

Re: Gut bacteria from amphibians and reptiles achieve tumor elimination in mice

#68

Post by yes_man »

kinj28 wrote: post #40

I have been working with my dad on his cancer treatment since last year. My interest in the topic has only peaked ever since. (Disclaimer- I am an engineer and not a microbiologist/doctor) Mutations and wrong copying of genome happens all the time in the body and some enzyme has the job of correcting the mutated genes so it doesn’t get into the system. Level 2 defence is T cells killing it as identified as foreign bo…

Cancer sucks and I wish your father the best.

Also not a doctor or microbiologist, but just wanted to share my layman’s guess on why fixing enzymes will not completely solve the issue: there’s 2 strands of DNA and to fix the broken (mutated) strand you need to have one correct template strand intact so you know what it should be fixed into. It could be the nucleotides swapped places between strands or are deleted completely or otherwise both mutated, which would mean any repair will not revert the sequence to what it used to be.

The other comments so far are probably more informed.

Re: Gut bacteria from amphibians and reptiles achieve tumor elimination in mice

#69

Post by mechsy »

yes_man wrote: post #68
kinj28 wrote: post #40

I have been working with my dad on his cancer treatment since last year. My interest in the topic has only peaked ever since. (Disclaimer- I am an engineer and not a microbiologist/doctor) Mutations and wrong copying of genome happens all the time in the body and some enzyme has the job of correcting the mutated genes so it doesn’t get into the system. Level 2 defence is T cells killing it as identified as foreign bo…

Cancer sucks and I wish your father the best. Also not a doctor or microbiologist, but just wanted to share my layman’s guess on why fixing enzymes will not completely solve the issue: there’s 2 strands of DNA and to fix the broken (mutated) strand you need to have one correct template strand intact so you know what it should be fixed into. It could be the nucleotides swapped places between strands or are deleted com…

Cancer sucks, I wish all the best towards a recovery.

You’d also have to ‘fix’ DNA: unless we can re-engineer a bunch of key enzymes and then re-encode the entire genome (or maybe key parts) with forward error correction without breaking everything else, it might work. You might also break evolution to some degree by making random point mutations less likely.

But what I learned so far is that as soon as you’d attempt something like this in bacteria, the fitness advantage from an evolutionary standpoint is negligible compared to the efficiency loss introduced by FEC, so your colony would get outcompeted by other bacteria unless there is a niche your resistant bacteria survive in (high radiation environments?). The efficiency loss induced ‘disadvantages’ would probably be less pronounced in mammals though - If (big if) you manage to not also break anything essential in the wonderful yet surprisingly efficient Rube Goldberg machine that is life.

Re: Gut bacteria from amphibians and reptiles achieve tumor elimination in mice

#70

Post by teekert »

kinj28 wrote: post #40

I have been working with my dad on his cancer treatment since last year. My interest in the topic has only peaked ever since. (Disclaimer- I am an engineer and not a microbiologist/doctor) Mutations and wrong copying of genome happens all the time in the body and some enzyme has the job of correcting the mutated genes so it doesn’t get into the system. Level 2 defence is T cells killing it as identified as foreign bo…

It starts with mutations (sometimes accelerated by mutagens (smoke, alcohol, etc) or inflammation (viruses, infections, etc) or just chance (things like asbestos up the division rate by constant physical damage and thus up the probability or an error in copying).

But there is much more to it. This is a nice paper for an overview: Hallmarks of Cancer (tng) [0]. It (among others) adds the very important and for years underestimated role of the immune system to the original 2000 paper.

[0] https://www.cell.com/fulltext/S0092-8674(11)00127-9

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