How Studying Body Language Changed the Way I Socialize • Hacker News Board

Re: How Studying Body Language Changed the Way I Socialize

#61

Post by gadders » Tue, Oct 09, 2012, 1:25 PM UTC

corporalagumbo wrote: post #3

"I feel like Neo at the end of The Matrix now." As much as I hate to admit it, I can identify with this. Becoming socially literate for me too has felt and continues to feel almost like a superpower. That "Wow! I can't believe I can do this!" feeling is a bit of a rush. I think what the author is describing is something of a growing trend. It has become relatively easy to make it through to adulthood with very low so…

The girl's example reminds me a bit of "blowing the dust out of the connector" by Raymond Chen:

Here's the trick: Don't ask "Are you sure it's plugged in correctly?"

If you do this, they will get all insulted and say indignantly, "Of course it is! Do I look like an idiot?" without actually checking.

Instead, say "Okay, sometimes the connection gets a little dusty and the connection gets weak. Could you unplug the connector, blow into it to get the dust out, then plug it back in?"

They will then crawl under the desk, find that they forgot to plug it in (or plugged it into the wrong port), blow out the dust, plug it in, and reply, "Um, yeah, that fixed it, thanks."

http://blogs.msdn.com/b/oldnewthing/archive/2004/03/03/83244...

Re: How Studying Body Language Changed the Way I Socialize

#62

Post by Buzaga » Tue, Oct 09, 2012, 1:30 PM UTC

no evidence - no science...

asperger can no longer be "a thing" soon, as it seems it will be removed from the next DSM... so these people either have nothing or are mild autistic or something.

it also appears that 20% of ppl 'diagnosed' with this 'grow out of it'

"it is nearly impossible to diagnose accurately, indeed statistics show that about 20% of those given the diagnosis later "grow out of it" and show no symptoms as adults, which admits the possibility that they were misdiagnosed in the first place. Also there have been many reports of opportunistic diagnosis of this syndrome in people who were simply different than their peers."

http://www.arachnoid.com/psychology/myth.html

Re: How Studying Body Language Changed the Way I Socialize

#63

Post by gadders » Tue, Oct 09, 2012, 1:32 PM UTC

kijin wrote: post #22

corporalagumbo wrote: post #3

"I feel like Neo at the end of The Matrix now." As much as I hate to admit it, I can identify with this. Becoming socially literate for me too has felt and continues to feel almost like a superpower. That "Wow! I can't believe I can do this!" feeling is a bit of a rush. I think what the author is describing is something of a growing trend. It has become relatively easy to make it through to adulthood with very low so…

> It really is a learnable skill! ... We've just forgotten the habit as a society of teaching it to our children. I think that's a hasty generalization. Some people are merely introverted, and can improve their social intelligence through everyday practice. Others, however, actually have a neurological condition (i.e. Asperger's Syndrome, which the article mentions). At least for some subset of them, "social intellig…

One point I would like to make: being an introvert doesn't mean you can't interact in a group situation (or have low social intelligence), it's just not your preferred situation.

I'd rather be reading a book than socialising with colleagues after work, but I do it and am far from a wallflower.

I also had an instructor on a course (on brainstorming) and he was very energetic, dynamic and dominated the room (in a good way). I chatted to him after the course and got on the subject of Myers-Briggs, and he said he was actually an introvert. He had just learnt (through training as an actor amongst other things) to be an extrovert when the situation required it.

Re: How Studying Body Language Changed the Way I Socialize

#64

Post by thesz » Tue, Oct 09, 2012, 1:44 PM UTC

graeme wrote: post #49

rcthompson wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> At least for some subset of them, "social intelligence" is little more than analytic intelligence applied to something that has a very low signal-to-noise ratio. Yep, that's exactly what it feels like to me. I recently got diagnosed with Asperger's. I find it impossible to do "social intelligence" in real time during a conversation. The frustrating part is that the signal is obviously there, since other people pick…

Paul Ekman has extensively documented micro expressions, which are trace views of the signal. Studying them will teach you the normal, longer expressions too, that's how I learned. How exactly does asperger's work? For me the learning process went: Learn that crinkles under the eye mean smile is real --> observe it quite a bit --> learn to see it naturally and intuitively That doesn't feel any different from any norm…

>Paul Ekman...

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17221309

"M. O'Sullivan and P. Ekman (2004) claim to have discovered 29 wizards of deception detection. The present commentary offers a statistical critique of the evidence for this claim. Analyses reveal that chance can explain results that the authors attribute to wizardry..."

Re: How Studying Body Language Changed the Way I Socialize

#65

Post by ap3rson » Tue, Oct 09, 2012, 1:55 PM UTC

borplk wrote: post #47

Is that what you really want? To me it's just promoting the manipulation of other people. Because hey, it's a skill so it's ok. Doesn't it bother you? To know that the person you are talking to, is mirroring your emotions, or offering sympathy, to manipulate you into liking them? I very much prefer the Aspergers-like honesty. I would rather hear 9 harsh, blunt, honest criticisms a day and 1 genuine complement than to…

I don't think it's fair to say that all of the skills are aimed at manipulation through means of social interaction.

There's nothing particularly wrong with empathy, it's all about connecting with people and building a better understanding through feeling. Unfortunately numerous self-help book titles often make it seem as if this is a hack, or a manipulation, in its essence though I feel that it's not.

Re: How Studying Body Language Changed the Way I Socialize

#66

Post by kijin » Tue, Oct 09, 2012, 1:57 PM UTC

jiggy2011 wrote: post #50

erichocean wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I do find it interesting that we ask Aspies to become more empathetic, but we don't ask neurotipicals to become a little less hung up on social niceties. Obviously, neurotypicals get the benefit of the doubt for "how people should be", since there are so many more of them. But we don't ask gays to be straight, despite not being "normal", numerically, so why should we ask Aspies to be more empathetic? Why assume an As…

Do you think that aspies are less susceptible to Zynga games? I don't know either way but in my own experience aspie types that I have met seem much more likely to be hooked on games like WoW certainly. I'm not sure that the comparison to gays works so well because by and large being gay doesn't affect your day to day relationships with other people apart from in specific circumstances. Unless you act in a stereotypi…

Zynga specializes in social games. FarmVille is rather pointless if you're not interesting in visiting your friends' farms and chatting about each other's cows. WoW, on the other hand, is fun to play even if you're not into idle chitchat.

Now, Minecraft, that's an Aspie's wet dream.

Re: How Studying Body Language Changed the Way I Socialize

#67

Post by skat_et_dieu » Tue, Oct 09, 2012, 2:02 PM UTC

I really enjoyed reading this article. It was almost as if I was reading about myself!! Naturally I am very introverted. I also love sitting back and studying social interactions that are happening around me.

I have a lot of friends who see me as an unemotional robot. For example, a good friend from high school died in a motorcycle accident a few months ago. I was very calm showing very little worry or stress about it when I found out. My friends who were there were kind of shocked by how calm and worry free I was about it. To me, logically there was nothing I could do to bring him back so why worry about it? At the funeral there was some crying and mourning for him but that was it.

But even though I don't show a lot of emotions I do have a way to look into people's eyes as we have a conversation and I am able to meet them emotionally. I start to create rapport by talking at the level and speed as them. Make sure they feel listened when they talk by giving back feedback. It really works very nicely.

I'm a programmer with not much care to show emotions but meeting people emotionally is one of the most powerful things you can do in your social life.

Re: How Studying Body Language Changed the Way I Socialize

#68

Post by gadders » Tue, Oct 09, 2012, 2:28 PM UTC

graeme wrote: post #53

borplk wrote: post #47

Is that what you really want? To me it's just promoting the manipulation of other people. Because hey, it's a skill so it's ok. Doesn't it bother you? To know that the person you are talking to, is mirroring your emotions, or offering sympathy, to manipulate you into liking them? I very much prefer the Aspergers-like honesty. I would rather hear 9 harsh, blunt, honest criticisms a day and 1 genuine complement than to…

Faking this stuff doesn't work well in the long run. How to win friends and influence people says to give people genuine compliments. I've gone through this kind of transportation. Certainly doesn't feel malicious to me. The main result is that people are a lot happier to be around me. Your argument feels analogous to someone worried by the teaching of logic. The students will become too clever and use their skills t…

I think it's kind of like how people say having a good product is the best marketing.

Being a nice guy (or girl!) is the same idea made personal.

Re: How Studying Body Language Changed the Way I Socialize

#69

Post by notlisted » Tue, Oct 09, 2012, 2:31 PM UTC

kijin wrote: post #22

corporalagumbo wrote: post #3

"I feel like Neo at the end of The Matrix now." As much as I hate to admit it, I can identify with this. Becoming socially literate for me too has felt and continues to feel almost like a superpower. That "Wow! I can't believe I can do this!" feeling is a bit of a rush. I think what the author is describing is something of a growing trend. It has become relatively easy to make it through to adulthood with very low so…

> It really is a learnable skill! ... We've just forgotten the habit as a society of teaching it to our children. I think that's a hasty generalization. Some people are merely introverted, and can improve their social intelligence through everyday practice. Others, however, actually have a neurological condition (i.e. Asperger's Syndrome, which the article mentions). At least for some subset of them, "social intellig…

What is considered "social" is also a cultural issue. People often talk about Steve Jobs being an asshole. I suspect he too didn't ascribe to the prevailing no-fault social model in de USA.

In terms of social interaction, the USA is the exception, not the norm. Many other cultures are more direct, critical, and less respectful of other's opinions if they "know better". For Aspies it would be easier to live elsewhere.

Americans somehow are no longer used to being told that they're wrong. They demand respect for their opinions (or worse: beliefs) which they won't get elsewhere unless based in facts/reason.

Have you ever worked with Europeans, especially people from The Netherlands or Russia?

Free advice is meted out generously and without excuses. According to them, Americans are extremely hung up on certain "niceties" that Dutchies (and much of Europe) consider "fake" or "politically correct". In reverse, Americans generally consider the French (and Dutch, and Russians, etc.) "rude".

I'm not necessarily saying the directness/truth is better, but it saves a bunch of time/bull as pointed out elsewhere. It requires some getting used to for the non-initiated... but once they do, they like it. My clients pay me for it.

I love working with 'Aspies', but I won't take them into a client meeting anymore. :-)

(chuckle: Customer is very happy with a new feature and remarks "oh wow, that must have taken a long time to implement". I was happy he said so, because we were close to going over budget and I wanted to send him another invoice. Aspie programmer, rightfully proud of his work: "oh no, not at all, perhaps 15 minutes!")

Re: How Studying Body Language Changed the Way I Socialize

#70

Post by nnq » Tue, Oct 09, 2012, 2:40 PM UTC

personlurking wrote: post #60

nnq wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I actually thought of having some sort of internet social network that would help people find other people like them using criteria like "believe and practice lifelong learning", "have diverse and special interests" and features like that I actually believe CAN be defined, even mathematically. It sometimes amazes me how "socially retarded" thing like Facebook and Google+ are... there's so much more one could do in th…

Yeah, that part really stinks. I've had that thought, too. I suppose in some sense this is what subreddits are, but no one cares about being your friend on Reddit.

...but imagine what would be to see someones G+ or Fb profile on Reddit (or request to see it and only have access to it of the Reddit user gives it to you) and then add it (submit a friend request) in a way such that he/she sees that you added him via Reddit and automagically sees your most recent common Reddit "conversations" on the side of the accept/deny friendship request so has enough infos and context to quickly make a decision... combine this with some non-annoying non-awkard psychometrics for whoever chooses to use them/accepts being used by them and it would start to be less "socially" retarted...

...the only HARD thing to do would be to make all these things unobstrusive enough so that they's happen without taking extra time and incurring too much cognitive overload

...or maybe 90% of users would be too "IT dumb" too actually benefit from and therefore use these advances ...and they would not bring enough extra revenue for behemonts like Fb