Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Kids Rarely Read Whole Books Anymore. Even in English Class

nytimes.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

61–70 of 364 posts

Re: Kids Rarely Read Whole Books Anymore. Even in English Class

#61

Post by Telaneo »

tekla wrote: post #34
Telaneo wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree that that's its purpose, but the fact that there are many adults who are as bad at reading and writing as there are just goes to show how bad the classes are at actually teaching what they're trying to teach. That said, maths aren't much different. Being bad at maths is a cultural marker of sorts, since many maths classes are very bad indeed at teaching much beyond basic addition and subtraction.

School is good for people who care to care. American students do pretty decently on international standard exams. It's that we have a culture of not giving a fuck, and thus we have adults who can't read something that is over a 6th grade level. See this very website on people who complain that they can't digest a pretty straightforward article https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46008788

I'd love to see those exams redone on a selection of adults with nothing to lose if they fail or get a bad score. Maybe the not giving a fuck becomes apparent then.

Out of all of Žižek's writings, that article really isn't that bad. I agree it could do with some headings, but you shouldn't need ChatGPT to summarise it for you, but I'm not surprised some people do.

Re: Kids Rarely Read Whole Books Anymore. Even in English Class

#62

Post by jasonwatkinspdx »

thrwaway55 wrote: post #19
lucyjojo wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

you don't write. people don't write in cursive around you?

Why would you write in cursive? If you care about WPM key board toasts it. If you care about handwritten your receiver cares they got your letter at all not that it's cursive or not. Cursive is an outdated skill for when it was the fastest way to get words written to paper.

> Cursive is an outdated skill for when it was the fastest way to get words written to paper.

There was a class signifier aspect to it as well. Poor kids couldn't spend as much time practicing and perfecting penmanship. In a world where much got done through handwritten personal letters, good penmanship would make an impression similar to having properly tailored formal attire vs a tattered coat.

My grandma went to public school but grew up in an era where that sort of thinking was widespread, so she got extra tutoring. She learned to write freehand with a ruler flat baseline and machine like consistency in each letter. You could recognize a card or mail from her instantly just by the addressing on the envelope.

I wasn't taught that strictly but I did spend years of elementary school with those Red Chief notebooks copying letters page after page much to the frustration of my young ADHD brain.

I doubt I could properly write cursive today. I barely ever hand write notes anymore, so there's no real point.

Re: Kids Rarely Read Whole Books Anymore. Even in English Class

#63

Post by cogman10 »

gambiting wrote: post #50
cogman10 wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Do you just write in block capitals? Block capitals? no. It's print. With upper and lowercase letters. I rarely handwrite now. The last time I really did was in college. > But....It still is? Without using some kind of machine of course. But of course this is HN where most people are technical. We all have some sort of machine at our disposal otherwise we'd not be writing back and forth to one another.

>>It's print. With upper and lowercase letters. So like.......not linking the letters together then? Doesn't that just actually take more effort than just writing cursive? And is slower? >>But of course this is HN where most people are technical. For sure, and as a professional programmer I keep a notebook with hand written notes - the fact that I have a keyboard and multiple monitors in front of me doesn't change th…

> not linking the letters together then?

Correct.

> Doesn't that just actually take more effort than just writing cursive? And is slower?

Probably yes to both counts.

However, when I'm handwriting I'm generally not in a position where speed or effort is the most important thing. To me, it's not much more effort to print and I get the added bonus of legibility. When I write cursive, it can be hard for me to understand what I wrote when I come back to it. I'm just a little too sloppy. It would take effort for me to get to the point where my cursive is neat and I frankly just don't handwrite enough to warrant that effort.

Consider this, do you use shorthand? I'd assume not. But why not? It's the fastest way to write anything. Cursive, by comparison, is both a lot of effort to write, is slower, and it wastes space.

I'd say for (some of) the same reasons you likely don't write shorthand, I don't write in cursive.

Re: Kids Rarely Read Whole Books Anymore. Even in English Class

#64

Post by Telaneo »

Natsu wrote: post #28
thrwaway55 wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why would you write in cursive? If you care about WPM key board toasts it. If you care about handwritten your receiver cares they got your letter at all not that it's cursive or not. Cursive is an outdated skill for when it was the fastest way to get words written to paper.

> Why would you write in cursive? Anyone using paper + pen? Writing a letter or thank you note? You know, stuff only people who grew up before the internet was popular still do.

If it's something I want people to read, I'd never dare write it in cursive, because if I did, I wouldn't count on them being able to read it.

I'll write in (not great) cursive for myself, but for other people? Writing in block or print is basically an accessibility feature. Even if my cursive was perfect, plenty of people would not be able to read it.

Re: Kids Rarely Read Whole Books Anymore. Even in English Class

#65

Post by thrwaway55 »

komali2 wrote: post #32
brightball wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Analog clocks are interesting in that they exercise your brain when you read them. You have to do calculation (what is the number system for each hand), spatial reasoning (where is each hand) and categorization (what is each hand). There’s a program called Arrowsmith that has a summer program called the Cognitive Intensive Program. It’s basically 3-4 hours a day of speed reading analog clock for 7 weeks. You start ou…

What information does an 8 handed clock convey?

Time?

Re: Kids Rarely Read Whole Books Anymore. Even in English Class

#66

Post by Zak »

gambiting wrote: post #44
Zak wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most people do not hand write anything more than a short note in 2025, and paper is not usually the target medium for longer texts. A desire to write without access to some sort of machine is a bit quaint. Of course to be pedantic, modern pens are machines too.

>>Most people do not hand write anything more than a short note in 2025 Is this like....a personal feeling? Or something with actual data behind it? But even if so - why does it matter? If you write short notes, do you not write them in cursive? >>Of course to be pedantic, modern pens are machines too. That's beyond pedantic, I struggle to imagine that anyone other than the a professional linguist would call a ball p…

It's an impression from my own social circle. I looked for data briefly because of this comment, but didn't find anything conclusive.

It does make sense to hand write short notes in cursive if you're hand writing short notes at all, but many people never learned it, or are so rusty it would take deliberate practice to restore proficiency.

Re: Kids Rarely Read Whole Books Anymore. Even in English Class

#67

Post by DaSHacka »

idle_zealot wrote: post #37
stevewodil wrote: post #4

I don’t know if this matters much. When I was in school it was rare to actually read a book assignment anyways, and I’m sure with LLMs now it’s less. I’ve started to have a positive association with reading only in the last few years, I wish schools didn’t force books onto children and make them think they hate reading for their whole lives.

> I wish schools didn’t force books onto children and make them think they hate reading for their whole lives The problem is that if you don't force them, they never actually become literate enough to discover that reading is fun later in life.

Or, as we've seen recently, you can force them and they still won't be literate enough.

Re: Kids Rarely Read Whole Books Anymore. Even in English Class

#68

Post by floren »

bgbntty2 wrote: post #59
stevewodil wrote: post #4

I don’t know if this matters much. When I was in school it was rare to actually read a book assignment anyways, and I’m sure with LLMs now it’s less. I’ve started to have a positive association with reading only in the last few years, I wish schools didn’t force books onto children and make them think they hate reading for their whole lives.

I think school ruined fiction books for me. I had to read long boring books about stories that didn't interest me, with useless sentences describing what the scene looked like or what someone had for dinner. Most of the stories and themes were outdated and didn't have enough context to make them understandable. Some books even used outdated words and phrases. Maybe if I wasn't forced to read a book in an outdated lan…

> Most of the stories and themes were outdated and didn't have enough context to make them understandable. Some books even used outdated words and phrases.

no cap Mr Darcy ur parties are bussin fr fr

Re: Kids Rarely Read Whole Books Anymore. Even in English Class

#69

Post by aaplok »

DaSHacka wrote: post #67
idle_zealot wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I wish schools didn’t force books onto children and make them think they hate reading for their whole lives The problem is that if you don't force them, they never actually become literate enough to discover that reading is fun later in life.

Or, as we've seen recently, you can force them and they still won't be literate enough.

You could force kids to read books without forcing which books to read. The issue as always is to find a balance between giving kids agency and making sure they do what's right.

Re: Kids Rarely Read Whole Books Anymore. Even in English Class

#70

Post by cr125rider »

tyleo wrote: post #40

Comments here are very strange, “Reading books should go the way of cursive! Education is more like childcare anyways.” It’s bizarre stuff to say. What would you have the education system do? Put iPads in front of kids all day?

You can say it’s like childcare, sure. But learning has to come from somewhere. Parents seem to be doing less and less out of the classroom. Does that mean we’re just giving up then?
Post reply on HN