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Doctors' estimates of the feasibility of preserving the dying for future revival

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Re: Doctors' estimates of the feasibility of preserving the dying for future revival

#61

Post by jewel »

michaelt wrote: post #4

When it comes to cryopreservation the thing I find infeasible is the idea a provider would bother with the preservation, under the incentives of capitalism. If someone pays millions of dollars to a company that promises to freeze their corpse for 200 years, the company can simply freeze the corpse for a decade or two, take the millions of dollars as dividends and executive bonuses, then declare bankruptcy. The dead c…

The way I think you'd set this up is you'd create a trust with the millions and then the trustees would pay the company its monthly fee from the trust's funds.

With enough funds, the trust should be able to both pay for your preservation and grow its balance. You'd even be able to inherit the remaining funds when revived.

Of course in practice there is still the possibility of the trustees being corrupt.

Re: Doctors' estimates of the feasibility of preserving the dying for future revival

#62

Post by pndy »

overtone1000 wrote: post #9

As with most science fiction, TNG did it better. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Neutral_Zone_(Star_Trek:_T...

Arthur C. Clarke explored this cultural shock as well in the final book of the Space Odyssey series:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/3001:_The_Final_Odyssey?useski...

Re: Doctors' estimates of the feasibility of preserving the dying for future revival

#63

Post by michaelt »

jaccola wrote: post #41
michaelt wrote: post #4

When it comes to cryopreservation the thing I find infeasible is the idea a provider would bother with the preservation, under the incentives of capitalism. If someone pays millions of dollars to a company that promises to freeze their corpse for 200 years, the company can simply freeze the corpse for a decade or two, take the millions of dollars as dividends and executive bonuses, then declare bankruptcy. The dead c…

With enough money, at least here in the UK, it is possible to set up structures that endure for one sole purpose for many generations. It was quite common for rich Victorians to donate their grounds/houses to be used for the public good and still today they are owned by the original trust and money from the trust can only be used in a certain way etc... we have many parks because of this (that otherwise could have be…

Isn't the UK also the home of the "Rule against perpetuities" [1] specifically stopping dead people from exerting control over the ownership of private property? To stop some duke in the 1600s setting inheritance rules for "their" land 6 generations into the future?

There may be exceptions to the rule against perpetuities for charities, but I don't imagine any sane court would consider keeping a corpse frozen to be a charitable activity.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rule_against_perpetuities

Re: Doctors' estimates of the feasibility of preserving the dying for future revival

#64

Post by michaelt »

DennisP wrote: post #40
michaelt wrote: post #4

When it comes to cryopreservation the thing I find infeasible is the idea a provider would bother with the preservation, under the incentives of capitalism. If someone pays millions of dollars to a company that promises to freeze their corpse for 200 years, the company can simply freeze the corpse for a decade or two, take the millions of dollars as dividends and executive bonuses, then declare bankruptcy. The dead c…

One way to mitigate that would be to put the money in a trust which pays the preservation company a monthly dividend. If the trust stops paying, the company can sue it. If the company goes out of business despite its ongoing revenue, the trust can try to find someone else to take over the storage. We already have trusts that manage wealth for multiple generations.

Let's say there was a power cut and the backup generator failed. The corpse is gone.

What happens to the money in the trust?

Re: Doctors' estimates of the feasibility of preserving the dying for future revival

#65

Post by pndy »

netsharc wrote: post #27
michaelt wrote: post #4

When it comes to cryopreservation the thing I find infeasible is the idea a provider would bother with the preservation, under the incentives of capitalism. If someone pays millions of dollars to a company that promises to freeze their corpse for 200 years, the company can simply freeze the corpse for a decade or two, take the millions of dollars as dividends and executive bonuses, then declare bankruptcy. The dead c…

There's a news story about such a company where they basically throw the bodies in a chest freezer, or stuffed many of them together in one unit, etc. Nightmare fuel... I have doubts that such a company could keep the power on for the next 200 years, with an increasingly unstable planet (climatically and politically). Maybe sending your body in a lead coffin into the coldness of space is a better preservation method,…

Some 20 years ago French Planete documentary channel (back then that channel had some good stuff - often shocking, unlike Discovery that slowly marched towards flashy popsci, aliens and WW2) was showing this piece about cryonics, and there was a segment about company that did indeed went bankrupt. Bodies of their clients due to unpaid bills de-thawed and started decomposing. And since that happen there was nothing else that families could do but just bury their beloved ones.

Some of the experts speaking argued that it's impossible to preserve and then revive human bodies with available technology because ice crystals do irreversible damage to body tissues.

Re: Doctors' estimates of the feasibility of preserving the dying for future revival

#66

Post by michaelt »

adastra22 wrote: post #22
michaelt wrote: post #4

When it comes to cryopreservation the thing I find infeasible is the idea a provider would bother with the preservation, under the incentives of capitalism. If someone pays millions of dollars to a company that promises to freeze their corpse for 200 years, the company can simply freeze the corpse for a decade or two, take the millions of dollars as dividends and executive bonuses, then declare bankruptcy. The dead c…

These aren’t companies doing the patient storage. It is non profits setup and run by people who are signed up themselves.

Wasn't OpenAI a non-profit?

Re: Doctors' estimates of the feasibility of preserving the dying for future revival

#67

Post by DennisP »

michaelt wrote: post #64
DennisP wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One way to mitigate that would be to put the money in a trust which pays the preservation company a monthly dividend. If the trust stops paying, the company can sue it. If the company goes out of business despite its ongoing revenue, the trust can try to find someone else to take over the storage. We already have trusts that manage wealth for multiple generations.

Let's say there was a power cut and the backup generator failed. The corpse is gone. What happens to the money in the trust?

Whatever you define when you set it up. Donate to charity, give to your descendants, etc.

Preferably the company would also have liability, giving the trust standing to sue. Then the trust spends some of their money on the lawsuit, and if they win, applies the proceeds as above.

Re: Doctors' estimates of the feasibility of preserving the dying for future revival

#68

Post by adastra22 »

FridayoLeary wrote: post #31
adastra22 wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

These aren’t companies doing the patient storage. It is non profits setup and run by people who are signed up themselves.

It's basically the same thing. What's stopping them from eventually losing interest or the non profit getting hijacked. I personally think the whole thing is a huge waste of money and i can imagine some guys in 50 years will think so too.

That they and the people they care about are stored there. This is a far stronger incentive than any profit motive.

Re: Doctors' estimates of the feasibility of preserving the dying for future revival

#69

Post by adastra22 »

michaelt wrote: post #66
adastra22 wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

These aren’t companies doing the patient storage. It is non profits setup and run by people who are signed up themselves.

Wasn't OpenAI a non-profit?

The second part of that sentence was the important bit.

Re: Doctors' estimates of the feasibility of preserving the dying for future revival

#70

Post by Retric »

benlivengood wrote: post #60
Retric wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Infinite does not mean everything happens. Waking up up the equivalent memories requires a body with that arrangement of neurons that isn’t in ill health. That could easily be looking for a 3 on an infinite sequence of odd numbers.

Yes, at some point Boltzmann brains become higher likelihood but don't forget that interventions are not limited to prior history, e.g. someone builds a machine that performs whole-body surgery based on the timing of radioactive decay. Still more likely to end up with a functioning body than a Boltzmann brain. Most likely to end up with a weirder but more likely intervention (low expectation of it actually working, b…

The issue I was pointing to was a society with a higher technical standard isn’t going to naturally create a brain that remembers a vastly less technologically advanced civilization. It’s possible they would create such structures artificially, but now your dependent upon a civilization with the capacity that also happens to create this specific arrangement.
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