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New owners of eBaum's World fire ebaum and his staff

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Re: New owners of eBaum's World fire ebaum and his staff

#61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Capitalism I think is as much a necessary evil as democracy, we know it isn't perfect but we've found it to be very very hard to come up with a working alternative. The best way to prove your point of course is to live it, and I'm very curious what proposal you have to replace capitalism. Socialism has been tried in the sovblock countries and it failed (due to greed and incompetence), so it seems that capitalism is b…

Do you even know what socialism, capitalism and communism are? You appear to be stuck in the dogmatic anti-communist teachings that date back to the cold war. All western countries are socialist, capitalism simply doesn't exist. There is a varying degree of socialism in the west, the US notoriously the least and its citizens suffer for it. A study showed that the UK's poor is healthier than the US's richest and pay l…

"Politics is the Mind-Killer" ->

http://www.overcomingbias.com/2007/02/politics_is_the.html

"Arguments are soldiers. Once you know which side you're on, you must support all arguments of that side, and attack all arguments that appear to favor the enemy side; otherwise it's like stabbing your soldiers in the back - providing aid and comfort to the enemy. People who would be level-headed about evenhandedly weighing all sides of an issue in their professional life as scientists, can suddenly turn into slogan-chanting zombies when there's a Blue or Green position on an issue."

Carry on with the discussion, but I was just in England last month, and "A study showed that the UK's poor is healthier than the US's richest and pay less for the privilege" is... ridiculous, mate. The poorest Englanders are wrecked up on cigarettes and liquor never leaves their blood supply, they're way overweight and suffer from the high prices of fresh produce due to the fact the UK is an island and they have to import so much stuff, and they suffer from the lack of sun. I'm in Bel Air, Los Angeles right now, and I assure you people are healthier here.

As for the HMS - most English people I know are split on it. Some think it works okay, some think it's a joke. Everyone has some complaints and ideas on how it could be better, and most people use it and are relatively healthy by historical standards.

Re: New owners of eBaum's World fire ebaum and his staff

#62
post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's regulating itself like a poorly built skyscraper that is being regulated by gravity: collapsing. We have rules about how to build skyscrapers to keep people from getting hurt. Why not the economy? Take what works, throw out what hurts. There has to be an incentive for people to make money, but it should be ok if it's required to be within a set of guidelines. Unfettered capitalism builds an unstable system. Unst…

Yep, you would think so. But the economy is mind-bogglingly complex and nuanced, full of billions of actors who act rationally and irrationally. Lately we have computer systems thrown into the mix that move billions of dollars around without a human decision involved. The one thing economists can say is that people usually act in their own best interests. If there is a loophole to be found, people will find it. Howev…

>n fact, because of the points in the first two paragraphs here, there's good evidence that the more we muck around with the economy, the worse we actually make it. There is a large and growing faction of economists that believe that the actions of the Federal Reserve (and to some extent Hoover and FDR) made the panic of 1929 into a full-blown depression -- turned something that would have taken a year or three to recover from and turned it into the biggest panic the country has ever seen.

That's the Austrian school of economics my friend, and in terms of "growing field" there's a lot of internet libertarians and the like that are "growing" into the field, with Ron Paul as their champion of the anti-FED.

However, amongst actual economists, the field isn't taken very seriously, because of many of its adherents semantic arguments (re-defining "inflation" outside of the standard scope, to make their argument) and its ability to ignore lots of contradicting reality. (Like, the fact that no, the Great Depression wouldn't have ended quickly, because Deficit Spending != More taxes, and our debt ratio after WWII was MULTIPLE times our GDP, and yet, our industry was booming.)

Re: New owners of eBaum's World fire ebaum and his staff

#63
post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

the new treasury secretary didn't bother to pay SSI [...] the new HUD secretary didn't bother to pay taxes on "in kind" payments What would that have to do with economic policy?

The point is that regulators are human and humans don't have the properties assumed by the "regulation will protect us" theory. If a system only works when some of the components are made of unobtanium, the system doesn't work. The current "stimulus" package is a great example. Well over half is just pumping up budgets for existing programs. Does anyone believe that those "enhanced" budgets will not become permanent?…

>Govt regulation also reduces diversity. It says that everyone pretty much has to behave the same way. We know how that works out.

Um, we get Food and Drugs that are safe? Drinking water that's actually drinkable and not full of stomach parasites and Cholera?

We get stable deposit banks? Notice that regional banks like BB&T, United Bank, and PNC -- non-investment banks, didn't engage in predatory lending. Their growth was stunted during the housing boom, but their customer's deposits are safe, the banks are stable, and they're in no need of a bail out. And again, due to regulation and FDIC, your money is much safer than pre-Depression era banks.

>Govt regulation is also political in the worst sense. Wells Fargo took a huge hit when it stayed out of the subprime mortgages. Regulators refused to let WF enage in unrelated activities (acquisitions, opening branches, etc.)because WF didn't "play ball", activities that said regulators let cooperative institutions do. Note that regulators don't take the hit.

I'd like to see some URLs, because (no offense) you're either being too concise or babbling non-sense. I'd like to read up more on it before concluding "regulation == ultra bad" simply from your paragraph.

Re: New owners of eBaum's World fire ebaum and his staff

#64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And meanwhile, what happens to the people who are bankrupted, ruined, cannot eat or get health care, while the system self-corrects? Reasonably happy, non-malnourished people make better employees, you'll have to admit.

The system doesn't self-correct everywhere at the same time (unless there is a central bank point of failure, if you see where I'm going...), so if your company is bankrupt you can find a job elsewhere. Mind you, people who were careful with their money and didn't believe in the pipe dream of ever increasing home equity need not worry about what's going on (well, they need to worry about what the government is doing,…

Um, we didn't have a central bank point of failure. We had 5 large investment banks, most of which had the intelligence to survive the first great depression.

The major problem is that the American economy had become entirely dependent on consumer spending, which, because of a lack of real wage growth among the bottom 80% led to a massive expansion and dependence on credit. When the housing bubble burst, credit went cold turkey, and many defaulted on their debt because of their inflated lifestyle.

As a result, everyone suffered. Consumers stopped spending, which lead to businesses credit lines being downgraded, leading to a halt in manufacturing and importing. The global ripples of having a force (like credit) simply disappear are obvious, just as they were right before the first great depression.

Re: New owners of eBaum's World fire ebaum and his staff

#65
post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

the new treasury secretary didn't bother to pay SSI [...] the new HUD secretary didn't bother to pay taxes on "in kind" payments What would that have to do with economic policy?

The point is that regulators are human and humans don't have the properties assumed by the "regulation will protect us" theory. If a system only works when some of the components are made of unobtanium, the system doesn't work. The current "stimulus" package is a great example. Well over half is just pumping up budgets for existing programs. Does anyone believe that those "enhanced" budgets will not become permanent?…

[deleted]

Re: New owners of eBaum's World fire ebaum and his staff

#66
post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The point is that regulators are human and humans don't have the properties assumed by the "regulation will protect us" theory. If a system only works when some of the components are made of unobtanium, the system doesn't work. The current "stimulus" package is a great example. Well over half is just pumping up budgets for existing programs. Does anyone believe that those "enhanced" budgets will not become permanent?…

>Govt regulation also reduces diversity. It says that everyone pretty much has to behave the same way. We know how that works out. Um, we get Food and Drugs that are safe? Drinking water that's actually drinkable and not full of stomach parasites and Cholera? We get stable deposit banks? Notice that regional banks like BB&T, United Bank, and PNC -- non-investment banks, didn't engage in predatory lending. Their growt…

we get [...] Drugs that are safe

Not unless one overcomes the barriers to pharmaceutical access.

Re: New owners of eBaum's World fire ebaum and his staff

#67
post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The point is that regulators are human and humans don't have the properties assumed by the "regulation will protect us" theory. If a system only works when some of the components are made of unobtanium, the system doesn't work. The current "stimulus" package is a great example. Well over half is just pumping up budgets for existing programs. Does anyone believe that those "enhanced" budgets will not become permanent?…

>Govt regulation also reduces diversity. It says that everyone pretty much has to behave the same way. We know how that works out. Um, we get Food and Drugs that are safe? Drinking water that's actually drinkable and not full of stomach parasites and Cholera? We get stable deposit banks? Notice that regional banks like BB&T, United Bank, and PNC -- non-investment banks, didn't engage in predatory lending. Their growt…

> we get Food and Drugs that are safe?

Nope. We get blockbuster drugs, after a long delay, and that's about it. As to their safety....

We're not seeing new antibiotics.

Feel free to explain why Viagra is more profitable than a new antibiotic. (Profit = revenues - costs, so the argument should consider both revenues and costs.)

> Notice that regional banks like BB&T, United Bank, and PNC -- non-investment banks, didn't engage in predatory lending. Their growth was stunted during the housing boom

Their growth was stunted by govt action because they weren't meeting their "lend to folks who can't pay back" quota.

> And again, due to regulation and FDIC, your money is much safer than pre-Depression era banks.

Huh? Somewhere north of $2 Trillion is being pissed away because of govt regulatory failures and you think that my money is safe?

>>Govt regulation is also political in the worst sense. Wells Fargo took a huge hit when it stayed out of the subprime mortgages. Regulators refused to let WF enage in unrelated activities (acquisitions, opening branches, etc.)because WF didn't "play ball", activities that said regulators let cooperative institutions do. Note that regulators don't take the hit.

> I'd like to see some URLs, because (no offense) you're either being too concise or babbling non-sense.

http://www.tradingmarkets.com/.site/news/Stock%20News/192184...

The "Community Reinvestment Act" is code for "subprime loans".

Re: New owners of eBaum's World fire ebaum and his staff

#68
post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Govt regulation also reduces diversity. It says that everyone pretty much has to behave the same way. We know how that works out. Um, we get Food and Drugs that are safe? Drinking water that's actually drinkable and not full of stomach parasites and Cholera? We get stable deposit banks? Notice that regional banks like BB&T, United Bank, and PNC -- non-investment banks, didn't engage in predatory lending. Their growt…

> we get Food and Drugs that are safe? Nope. We get blockbuster drugs, after a long delay, and that's about it. As to their safety.... We're not seeing new antibiotics. Feel free to explain why Viagra is more profitable than a new antibiotic. (Profit = revenues - costs, so the argument should consider both revenues and costs.) > Notice that regional banks like BB&T, United Bank, and PNC -- non-investment banks, didn'…

>We're not seeing new antibiotics. Feel free to explain why Viagra is more profitable than a new antibiotic.

Because of the same market forces you're arguing for. And we are seeing new antibiotics. SARS, for example, didn't kill everyone. Although as a side-effect, the drug used to treat SARS killed all their living bone marrow.

So developing a curative anti-biotic that germs aren't already resistant to, that doesn't box liver/kidneys/bone endocytes is a largely complex, potentially intractable problem.

The two new techniques we're seeing is RNAi "wipes" to prevent transmission of the Herpes Simplex Virus (a potentially new anti-viral drug -- and a technique to develop more anti-viral drugs), and studying Alligator Blood. Alligator's "White Blood Cells" are extremely powerful, and we may be able to synthesize proteins that are safe for humans, and yet equally powerful.

So yes, new antibiotics are here, or they're coming. They just don't warrant commercials because you're not going out to ask your doctor about the new antibiotic the same way you're going to ask about Viagra. You could argue that "nothing new is happening with battery technology? Where are all the new battery technologies?" You'd be right (nothing new worth marketing about) but you'd also be wrong (plenty of incremental improvements over the last 20 years that've dramatically changed battery performance.)

>Their growth was stunted by govt action because they weren't meeting their "lend to folks who can't pay back" quota.

Again, wrong. BB&T's CEO has stated they didn't join in the Bubble for reasons other than government regulation. Their growth was stunted in the sense that you were getting a sensible 6% return instead of the 9% you'd get with BoA or Citi. Except now your investment is still around, your competitors isn't. Its one of those "When I'm excluded from the bubble I'm losing money, but now that its over I'm raking it in" things that just happens. Its also what fuels bubbles: If your competitor is shortchanging his customers, but delivering superior returns, your customers will seek him out. So you can lose business, or your engage in short term, unsustainable thinking just like everyone else. They choose the former.

>Huh? Somewhere north of $2 Trillion is being pissed away because of govt regulatory failures and you think that my money is safe?

Again, Investment Banks != Deposit Account Banks. If you were investing in a mutual fund, there was risk. That's what you were trading higher returns for -- the risk you might lose money. If you simply dumped your money in a depository account -- something FDIC and 0% risk, then no, you couldn't have lost money. Nobody has.

And again, that's one of the reason why depository banks have been incredibly stable since the last great depression: They can survive bank runs, and even if they become insolvent, the government has $44 million of insurance money to ensure you get your money back with little hassle.

Again, after reading the URL you gave me, I think you're babbling non-sense. Yes, I get the point: The CRA allows the bank to lend to people who otherwise couldn't get loans. But the claim "Wells Fargo took a huge hit when it stayed out of the subprime mortgages. Regulators refused to let WF enage in unrelated activities (acquisitions, opening branches, etc.)because WF didn't "play ball", activities that said regulators let cooperative institutions do." is NOT substantiated by the article you linked. More HOW and WHY, less WHAT, please.

Re: New owners of eBaum's World fire ebaum and his staff

#69
post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> we get Food and Drugs that are safe? Nope. We get blockbuster drugs, after a long delay, and that's about it. As to their safety.... We're not seeing new antibiotics. Feel free to explain why Viagra is more profitable than a new antibiotic. (Profit = revenues - costs, so the argument should consider both revenues and costs.) > Notice that regional banks like BB&T, United Bank, and PNC -- non-investment banks, didn'…

>We're not seeing new antibiotics. Feel free to explain why Viagra is more profitable than a new antibiotic. Because of the same market forces you're arguing for. And we are seeing new antibiotics. SARS, for example, didn't kill everyone. Although as a side-effect, the drug used to treat SARS killed all their living bone marrow. So developing a curative anti-biotic that germs aren't already resistant to, that doesn't…

we are seeing new antibiotics.

Largely because of the costs of FDA regulation compliance, it costs ~$1-2 billion to develop the average new drug. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pharmaceutical_industry#The_cos...

How many potential drugs, each year, have not been developed, because of the difference between that cost and the potential cost in a zero-regulation environment? Thousands? Millions?

Re: New owners of eBaum's World fire ebaum and his staff

#70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>We're not seeing new antibiotics. Feel free to explain why Viagra is more profitable than a new antibiotic. Because of the same market forces you're arguing for. And we are seeing new antibiotics. SARS, for example, didn't kill everyone. Although as a side-effect, the drug used to treat SARS killed all their living bone marrow. So developing a curative anti-biotic that germs aren't already resistant to, that doesn't…

we are seeing new antibiotics. Largely because of the costs of FDA regulation compliance, it costs ~$1-2 billion to develop the average new drug. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pharmaceutical_industry#The_cos... How many potential drugs, each year, have not been developed, because of the difference between that cost and the potential cost in a zero-regulation environment? Thousands? Millions?

A better question would be "How many potential drugs have not been developed because they cannot be patented?"

Oh, and a zero regulation environment? There's always going to be liability for "your drug killed people". In a zero regulation environment that cost is going to be incredibly high. Or your placebo drug is going to CAUSE economic damage by killing productive workers.

Your model of regulation/no-regulation is far too simple. As always, there is a sweet spot somewhere in the middle where both the public (consumer) and the corporation (producer) benefit.

And as always, if the cost of new drug (say an AIDS cure) is prohibitively high, a government may subsidize the process. Or even simply provide capital incentive (say a $2 billion winner take all prize, like an X-Prize for drugs).

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